Author Topic: Romans 7 and 8  (Read 90703 times)

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Glen

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #400 on: May 18, 2013, 06:22:08 AM »
I appreciate the "bent", that "new mind" the Believer, one "born again" -"of the Spirit", that nerves the soul to think and to do "after His likeness". God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh (Romans 8:3):

Romans 6:
17 ...ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 ...as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Ephesians 1:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

John 5:
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 1:
12 ...as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

The Believer has inherited a new nature, even Christ's divine nature, enabling him to experience His resurrection power in his mortal body:

Colossians 2:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Thus the Believer, "lost in the divine being", triumphs in and through the wonderful plan of Our Heavenly Father (parent).
...Jesus...will live through (YOU), giving (YOU) the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to (YOUR) soul a vital transfusion of Himself. Sabbath-School Worker 02-01-96.03  ...as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power... 7T 189.02

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #401 on: May 18, 2013, 06:37:12 AM »
Amen! And not only experiences the Kingdom of God now, but is a true witness of Jesus Christ. When we sin, we misrepresent our god. This is the reason for our being, to enable others to know the gospel, the good news of God's love for us while we were yet sinners!  Have a blessed Sabbath, Brother Glen!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Glen

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #402 on: May 18, 2013, 06:56:09 AM »
I purpose to focus on what I may be, and become more fully, IN Christ, and in His body the Church, of which I am become a "member in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27); part, and parcel.

Colossians 1:
19 ...it pleased the Father that in (Christ) should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel...which...
24 ...Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:
25 ...to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Thank you, Brother Richard; may His divine "rest" be ours as we fellowship with the Brethren who are like-minded, provoking all to love and every good work, much like Paul encouraged Timothy to be an example even in the "youth" of his experience (1 Timothy 5:1; 1 Timothy 4:12); and, as Peter, under inspiration of that same Spirit:

2 Peter 3:
1 ...stir up (our) pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 That (we) may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts...
...Jesus...will live through (YOU), giving (YOU) the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to (YOUR) soul a vital transfusion of Himself. Sabbath-School Worker 02-01-96.03  ...as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power... 7T 189.02

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #403 on: June 30, 2013, 11:30:37 AM »
Amen, Glen.  Christ in us, the hope of glory.

It is true that after conversion, we still live in these vile bodies of fallen flesh. But, that is no excuse for sin. Jesus had a dual nature. He came in the "likeness of sinful flesh", but He was God. We have sinful flesh, but we may become partakers of His divine nature. Thus, we are given power to keep the flesh (body) under at all times. "But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."  1 Corinthians 9:27.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Glen

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #404 on: November 16, 2013, 03:06:19 AM »
Amen, Glen.  Christ in us, the hope of glory.

It is true that after conversion, we still live in these vile bodies of fallen flesh. But, that is no excuse for sin. Jesus had a dual nature. He came in the "likeness of sinful flesh", but He was God. We have sinful flesh, but we may become partakers of His divine nature. Thus, we are given power to keep the flesh (body) under at all times. "But I keep under my body, and bring [it] into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."  1 Corinthians 9:27.

Thus; the Penitent have a dual nature. Though in sinful flesh, the Penitent are become partaker of the Divine Nature:
...conscious that they are breathing the breath of heaven, the only atmosphere in which the soul can live...By obedience they are made partakers of the divine nature. The doing of the living principles of the law of God makes them one with Christ. And He has pledged Himself to raise them up at the last day...as a part of Himself. Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one [Nos. 1501-1598], p. 347.4

...one with Christ...Subjection to God is restoration to one’s self,—to the true glory and dignity of man. The Desire of Ages, p. 466.5

The prophets and apostles did not perfect Christian character by a miracle. They used the means which God had placed within their reach, and all who will put forth a like effort will secure a like result.  The Spirit of Prophecy Volume 4, p. 305.
...Jesus...will live through (YOU), giving (YOU) the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to (YOUR) soul a vital transfusion of Himself. Sabbath-School Worker 02-01-96.03  ...as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power... 7T 189.02

JimB

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #405 on: August 25, 2015, 05:52:03 PM »
Forgive if I cover old ground here as I don't have time right now to go back and read all the pages already posted. But something I read this morning reminded me of a Sabbath School a few weeks ago. We were discussing having victory in Jesus. If I remember correctly it was the week that Daniel was used as an example of being a missionary. We were talking about how we can through Christ have victory in our lives over sin. Then one elderly saint brought up how thankful he was that we have Paul's example in Romans 7 of not doing the things he wants but doing the things he doesn't want.

I was there listening to and trying how best to answer this man kindly without offending. Then a lady raised her hand and when called on she said yes.. but we don't have to stay in Romans 7 because Paul shows that we can have victory in Romans 8 and the discussion moved on. It was done really nice and for that I'm thankful.

Then this morning I read the following which to me, at least, confirms that Romans 7 should not be the life of a Christian as she equates this experience as someone who is not in harmony with God.

Through the same faith we may receive spiritual healing. By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Ephesians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin.  {DA 203.2} 
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Glen

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #406 on: October 17, 2015, 07:39:50 PM »
Amen, Brother JimB, and thanks for sharing your experience. It reminds me of the time nearly 30 yrs ago, a local SDA Pastor, during Prayer Meeting and specifically studying Romans 7, was saying the same things suggested by that "one elderly saint" you mention. When my Dad and I kindly yet soberly encouraged the group to ponder the next chapter and the reality that it is God's intention to have His people go on to victory, one of the women, considered by all as a "member in good standing", screamed loudly with neck veins bulging, that we were of the devil; and the Pastor promptly escorted us to the Church Exit, saying that we were not welcome.
...Jesus...will live through (YOU), giving (YOU) the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to (YOUR) soul a vital transfusion of Himself. Sabbath-School Worker 02-01-96.03  ...as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power... 7T 189.02

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #407 on: October 31, 2015, 09:20:30 AM »
While re-reading this topic I came across a statement made by cp.  It is interesting and needs to be further investigated.

Here is cp's statement in reply to what Sister Mimi had been teaching on conversion.

" None are fully converted until their characters are perfected and character perfection is the work of a lifetime. "    Do you believe that ?

No, I don't. What you appear to describe is progressive conversion. What the Bible speaks of is progressive growth in sanctification which produces character perfection.

When we are born again, that is the point of conversion. We are as babes. John 3:3; 1Peter 2:2. Born again means a transformation, a new birth in Christ Jesus. It is not progressive but it does come after a long protracted period of wooing by the Holy Spirit. Either we are converted and become a new creature in Christ or we don't. We are never a little bit converted or half-way converted or 7/8ths converted. And, we remain converted as we abide in Christ, never letting go or taking our eyes off of Him. Sanctification, however, is progressive, and IT is the work of a lifetime, where we "may grow up into him in all things." Ephesians 4:15.



Tesimonies For the Church page 505 paragraph  2      " ...... Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day: and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality."

What you feel sister is just more human reasoning is a direct quote from Inspiration. I believe it.

I am not addressing what cp believes, but what the quote means in the context of the new birth. We are attempting to show that one sin, a known sin, reveals a separation between man and God and therefore reveals the need to be re-justified, reconverted. In other words, the commonly taught doctrine that one may retain salvation when sinning a known sin is a false gospel. We want to reconcile the  statement shared by cp with the gospel truth that conversion brings forth a "new heart" cleansed from sin.

Let's first look at the quote cp shared, but from another Book. Notice how the first paragraph is stating perfection in the context of "translation" which is not the perfection obtained when truly converted.

 The Christian life is constantly an onward march. Jesus sits as a refiner and purifier of His people; and when His image is perfectly reflected in them, they are perfect and holy, and prepared for translation. A great work is required of the Christian. We are exhorted to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Here we see where the great labor rests. There is a constant work for the Christian.   
     None are living Christians unless they have a daily experience in the things of God and daily practice self-denial, cheerfully bearing the cross and following Christ. Every living Christian will advance daily in the divine life. As he advances toward perfection, he experiences a conversion to God every day; and this conversion is not completed until he attains to perfection of Christian character, a full preparation for the finishing touch of immortality.  AG 291.


The  context  of the quote in question is not saying we can sin when converted, it is stating that we must be converted daily  and God  is not  finished until we are ready for translation. But, not all will attain this state of holiness. But, all who will enter heaven must have been truly converted. When converted, the "baby" Christian is holy and has a pure an undefiled heart. As cp pointed out, God looks upon the heart. The heart of a truly converted Christian is pure and holy, cleansed from sin. His conversion is not complete in that it must be a daily, even moment  by moment conversion. And, for some, it will not be complete until they perfectly reflect the  character of Christ.

Here we see what appears to be a contradiction, but is not. It has to do with the definition of perfect. When  something is perfect, we do not generally think it can be improved upon. But, let's look at the  life of Christ. He was always perfect, was He  not? But, did  He  not  mature? He was not ready for Gethsemane when He was 12. "Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered." Hebrews 5:8. So it  is with all who are abiding  in Christ, they too are "perfect" at that stage of their Christian experience. They are partakers of God's divine nature as long as the Holy Spirit indwells their hearts. They possess the mind of Christ and their motives are pure and holy. If they allow their minds to wander away from Christ, then they  no longer are connected to Christ and have no power to resist the smallest temptation. They may not sin outwardly, but as cp said, God looks upon the heart. He  knows if we love Him supremely or if self is alive and well.

Here is another statement  that may help us to rightly understand Romans seven is  not the experience of a converted Christian.

   If we make God our trust, we have it in our power to control the mind in these things. Through continued exercise, it will become strong to battle with internal foes, and to subdue self, until there is a complete transformation, and the passions, appetite, and will are brought into perfect subjection. Then there will be daily piety at home and abroad, and when we engage in labor for souls, a power will attend our efforts. The humble Christian will have seasons of devotion which are not spasmodic, fitful, or superstitious; but calm and tranquil, deep, constant, and earnest. The love of God, the practice of holiness, will be pleasant when there is a perfect surrender to God.  Review and Herald, May 19, 1885. 


This is not the perfection of those who will live after probation closes, those whose character "perfectly reflects the character of Christ." Here a "complete transformation" does not mean there will not be further growth (sanctification). It means that the sinner has found He needs Christ all of the time and understands how to maintain  that experience. If we look at Peter's experience prior to the cross we find he could walk on water, but did not understand how to walk  on water. He thought  he could walk on  water when he took his eyes off of Jesus. Can we walk in the Spirit without keeping our eyes on Jesus?

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Glen

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #408 on: November 06, 2015, 07:17:26 PM »
Those who come up to every point, and stand every test, and overcome, be the price what it may, have heeded the counsel of the True Witness, and they will be fitted by the latter rain for translation. Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, p. 225.1

God proves his people in this world. This is the fitting up place to appear in his presence. Here, in this world, in these last days, individuals will show what power affects their hearts and controls their actions. If it is the power of divine truth, it will lead to good works. It will elevate the receiver, and make him noble-hearted and generous, like his divine Lord.  Spiritual Gifts, vol. 2, p. 225.2

The completeness of Christian character is attained when the impulse to help and bless others springs constantly from within; when the sunshine of heaven fills the heart, and is expressed in the countenance. RH March 27, 1900, par. 16

…when we love the world as He has loved it, then for us His mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven; for we have heaven in our hearts. God's Amazing Grace, p. 54.6
...Jesus...will live through (YOU), giving (YOU) the inspiration of His sanctifying Spirit, imparting to (YOUR) soul a vital transfusion of Himself. Sabbath-School Worker 02-01-96.03  ...as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power... 7T 189.02

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #409 on: November 07, 2015, 08:47:48 AM »
Amen, Glen. 

What we are attempting to do at this moment is to separate Romans 7 from Romans 8. Romans 8 does not address translation, but the Christian life after conversion. Here is where the great deception is found. So many have been taught Romans 7 is the Christian experience, that when in a converted state we do the things we ought not do. In other words we sin in a converted state.

My last post reveals when in a truly converted state there has been a transformation character that has cleansed the heart.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #410 on: March 29, 2016, 02:52:14 PM »
We have 21 pages in this topic that cover 16 years. I have spent an hour or so reviewing some of it. It is not easy to overcome an incorrect belief when it has been taught in church and accepted over a long period of time. What is impossible with man, is possible with God. Because the error regarding Romans seven and eight is so great and has led so many off the foundation of our faith, we continue this discussion. It will be helpful to some who take time to read through this topic.

It has been a joy to teach about the conversion of Paul (Saul). It is a great blessing to be able to use these two chapters to point to our continual need of Jesus. These chapters reveal how evil we are by nature, and how powerful is the grace of God.

One of the beautiful truths that can be opened by a correct understanding of Romans seven is how Saul was converted. We will not find an exact explanation that explains how Christ won his heart, but it is revealed in pieces that make it so very easy to see. Here a little, there a little, and the picture is painted as clear as the sun at mid-day.

We are all saved by grace. Here is an exercise that will be a blessing to all who continue on with it. I am going to share a statement that will open the door a little wider than the verse I just quoted. It would be easy to repeat the lesson as I have taught it for many years, but how much better to learn it for yourself and be taught by Scripture and the Holy Spirit!

    Through His servants, God gave the Jewish people a last opportunity to repent. He manifested Himself through His witnesses in their arrest, in their trial, and in their imprisonment. Yet their judges pronounced on them the death sentence. They were men of whom the world was not worthy, and by killing them the Jews crucified afresh the Son of God. So it will be again. The authorities will make laws to restrict religious liberty. They will assume the right that is God's alone. They will think they can force the conscience, which God alone should control. Even now they are making a beginning; this work they will continue to carry forward till they reach a boundary over which they cannot step. God will interpose in behalf of His loyal, commandment-keeping people. 
     On every occasion when persecution takes place, those who witness it make decisions either for Christ or against Him. Those who manifest sympathy for the ones wrongly condemned show their attachment for Christ. Others are offended because the principles of truth cut directly across their practice. Many stumble and fall, apostatizing from the faith they once advocated. Those who apostatize in time of trial will, to secure their own safety, bear false witness, and betray their brethren. Christ has warned us of this, that we may not be surprised at the unnatural, cruel course of those who reject the light.


The pieces of the puzzle are set before you in Scripture and enlightened in the Spirit of Prophecy. Share with us how God's Spirit brought Saul to the point of conversion.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #411 on: July 09, 2016, 06:51:26 PM »
This morning the Pastor's sermon was on temptation and how Jesus was tempted in all points as we are. He then talked about the Christian's struggle with sin and took us to Roman's 7.  After his sermon I asked him if Roman's 7 was talking about Paul in his unconverted state or converted. He paused and said, "you know...a lot of people ask that question". He then went to Roman's 7 on his IPad and attempted to "prove" to me that Paul is talking about his conversion experience.

I disagreed but he said that this is the experience of everyone of God's children until the loud cry. If it wasn't that way then he said we could boast of having "arrived". He said that through the sanctification process  the Roman's 7 experience becomes less and less as we get to know Jesus better. There was no convincing him of anything else. He read v. 15 to show that Paul's experience is in the present and not past and that he does what he hates which an unconverted man would not be concerned about.

I'm now putting together some thoughts from the topic here and quotes from SOP. But I do agree with Richard that once a person believes this it is very hard for them to see it any other way. I was one of them. I believed it as the Pastor does. It took me a long time and much prayer to see the truth.

This may be a strong statement to make but I do not see how anyone can experience victory over sin if you believe that Rom. 7 is the Christian's experience.

But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #412 on: July 10, 2016, 06:43:35 AM »
Amen, Dorine.  His interpretation excuses sin. One has no way of knowing when they are converted and when they are not. Most are unconverted if they believe the pastor and know not that they are miserable, wretched, poor, blind, and naked.

To answer his belief about having arrived, we do not believe in once saved always saved. Yet, many believe in a form of it. They really do believe once one is converted, they can sin and still be saved. As long as they don't "practice" sin, they are ok.

Moses sinned at the end of his life. If he ever believed he had arrived, he would have been mistaken. It cost him going into the promised land, but worse, it crucified afresh our Lord, and because of Moses' position, it would bring reproach upon the truth he had taught. That is why God laid him to rest, in an effort to remove that reproach. We do not hear men preaching, even Moses sinned. Why not? Because God took his life on account of his one sin.  And, that one sin was not premeditated, nor was it "willful". Yet, it revealed a separation between Moses and God.

No, we do not arrive when we are converted. We must maintain our connection continually if we are to be in a converted state. If we take our eyes off of Christ, if we let our minds wander away from Christ, we have no power to resist the smallest temptation. We may not sin openly, but we sin. It may not appear to many, but when we do something apart from Christ, it is from a selfish motive. In Moses' case, it was easy to see he had lost his connection with Christ. The fruits of the Spirit were not in his life. He had reverted back to his natural man with a carnal heart. He was not walking in the Spirit, therefore, he was under condemnation (Romans 8:1). And if we have not His Spirit, we are none of His (Romans 8:9).

One cannot believe Romans 7 is the Christian experience if one believes Romans 8. That would make the two chapters contradict each other. Sister Dorine, what has been so strong in your understanding that you can understand the truth about Romans 7?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #413 on: July 10, 2016, 02:03:16 PM »
Sister Dorine, what has been so strong in your understanding that you can understand the truth about Romans 7?

It's been a journey. I've always wanted to know the truth about everything not just someones opinion or theory or what sounded, looked or tasted good. Or at least I thought I did.

I don't ever remember anyone preaching about Romans 7 when I was young but comments were made to the effect that it was the experience of the converted. I could relate because that is exactly what was happening to me. My heart wanted to do what was right but my flesh got in the way and I would yield. Then guilt, shame, confession and repentance would follow only to repeat it again and again. I was most "wretched" for sure but I was convinced that this is the way it would be until the end. The main thing was that I was sorry, and repentant. That took care of everything and I was covered with the Righteousness of Christ. (but I was not at peace)

In 1998 I became very ill. The heart specialist diagnosed me with blocked arteries and a damaged heart. I watched the tests he did on a monitor and he explained to me where the problems were.  I was so ill that I could not function at all.  The pain was always with me. I could not eat or even drink water without pain and exhaustion. I knew I was dying. I could feel my life forces ebbing away.

During this time my highest concern was my relationship with God. All of a sudden my understanding of my walk with God was not bringing me assurance or peace. I had to know where I stood with Him. I could not hold a book to read except a small paperback of Step to Christ. That's all I did for about a week in between Dr. visits and hospital trips. I begged God for assurance of His salvation to me. I agonized with Him and as I read that beautiful little book eating every word; he started talking to me...... "Dorine, I need your heart. Your whole heart. You are holding back things that I need to carry for you. You are afraid of things that you need to give to me. I love you. I gave my life for YOU so that you can have peace as you abide in Me."

Then I read this question in the chapter on repentance. "How shall a man be just with God?" Acts 2: 37, 38....Repent! But Lord I do that every day. The next paragraph hit the nail on the head.....

"Repentance includes sorrow for sin and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we (see) it's sinfulness: until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life."
"There are many who fail to understand the true nature of repentance. Multitudes sorrow that they have sinned and even make an outward reformation because they fear that their wrongdoing will bring suffering upon themselves. But this is not repentance in the Bible sense. They lament the suffering rather than the sin."

This was the first step in a true relationship with God that grew and grew as I continued reading this little book that I had read so many times before. But now it was like a brand new message to ME alone. I read about the difference between Esau's confession and David's. A light began to shine in my heart and I understood. I could (see) it for the first time.  Thank you God I prayed as tears of relief ran down my face. Why have I not understood this before? Now I found myself thanking Him for the illness I was now experiencing because it was this that brought me to the foot of the cross in humble total surrender. 

You may be wondering what this has to do with Rom. 7. Well nothing and yet everything. During this illness I was not even thinking about Rom. 7 but when I was confronted with Rom. 7 again it was this experience that started to unravel it for me. (Remnant on Line brought it to completion.)

 Each night hubby would hold me and pray out loud until the pain eased and I was able to fall asleep. Then one night I was as low as low could be. I knew that if I didn't get to emergency I would not see the light of a new day.

To make a long story short.....I spent 5 days in ICU while they waited for an appointment in the Columbus Ohio Hospital to do a heart cath. If it had turned out bad they would have taken me into surgery right away.

Well just so you know the rest of the story my tests showed everything was normal.  Come to find out I was suffering from severe acid reflux and as soon as the appropriate medication was prescribed I was a new person. It's almost embarrassing to tell but it was far more embarrassing for my cardiologist because he happened to be the top cardiologist in that hospital. Even my daughter who works in a Canadian hospital in cardiology said this Dr. is well known and respected even as far away as Canada.

Wow what a God. It may have been the only way He could get my attention.

Many years later I heard about Remnant on Line and joined. What a blessing it has been to me.  Then I came across the topic of Rom. 7. I began to scan everything that was presented. That is when I once again picked up my thirst to know the truth on this topic. I knew that what I had experienced many years ago through my illness and what I had read in SC did not fit the popular teaching on Rom. 7. But it was hard to let go of. I tried every way to make it fit somehow. What ever the outcome I had to know the truth. There was no one thing that convinced me. It was a constant reading of what was said here and the bible and SOP and prayer. I stayed in the background while all of you discussed back and forth. We never know the effect discussions are having on those that are silent on RO.

So how is my illness connected to Rom. 7. Only this......When I gave my heart completely to God and began a new journey with Him I was no longer "wretched" and doing what I hate or doing what I don't want to do. When I do sin guilt leads me back to God and although my heart is full of sorrow for the pain I have caused my Saviour I do not experience that "wretchedness" that Rom. 7 is talking about.

The only time I feel that "wretchedness" is when I have taken my eyes off Jesus and am going my own way.

I'm sorry Richard. I'm sure you didn't mean for such a lengthy answer. I hope it makes sense because much has been left out.

But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #414 on: July 10, 2016, 05:21:38 PM »
No need to apologize dear sister. Our testimony is the most important thing we can say. Many will read what you have written and it will start a train of thinking that will lead them to see their continual need of Jesus in order to be able to do any good thing.  Until we are reconciled to God, we are captive to the law of sin and death. It is only when we abide in Christ and He in us that we have power to overcome the smallest temptation. Your testimony reveals what many are experiencing today.

There are two verses that come to mind that will be helpful to many who are not experiencing continual victory over sin. As you learned from Steps to Christ, there is a repentance that must be repented of, for it is not brought about by sorrow for what our sins have done to Jesus, but as with Judas, because of our fear of the consequences. These two verses explain it very clearly.

"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death." 2 Corinthians 7:10.
  Repentance that does not come from God needs to be repented of.

"Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Romans 2:4.
Sadly many have not been taught properly it is by beholding the goodness of God (His grace) that we are brought to repentance. This is why it would be good to spend a thoughtful hour a day contemplating the life of Christ. This is why Daniel who had a perfect heart (character) would leave his work, go home, kneel down, and pray to God....even when he was threatened with death for so doing. We are told that by beholding the loveliness of Jesus we will be changed into His image (character), even by His Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18). We never arrive at a place where we can take our eyes off of Jesus and have power to not sin. But, we can today be converted and tomorrow be reconverted, for Paul explains we need to die to self daily.

What is presented as truth is not nearly as motivating as hearing the testimony of one who has experienced the power of grace to transform the life. Thank you, Sister Dorine. God will use your words to encourage others who are discouraged about their experience.

Now...I am very excited because you can discover what it was that converted the Romans 7 man. As Paul explains his awakening to his condemnation, he tries, tries, and tries to overcome, but fails. He at last sees he is captive to sin and death. He then utters that most pitiful prayer. "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death." He had no idea because the God of heaven had not given him power to resist his fallen nature. He was completely undone, but like you, dear Dorine, he wanted to quit sinning. He was willing to do anything at this point.

What was it that revealed his sins, and what was it that brought him to a full surrender? I know of no where in inspiration that we are told this in straight lines, but we are indeed told enough to piece it together. Let me share one more statement from the Spirit of Prophecy that will be helpful in putting the pieces together. "A person may not be able to tell the exact time or place, or to trace all the circumstances in the process of conversion; but this does not prove him to be unconverted. By an agency as unseen as the wind, Christ is constantly working upon the heart. Little by little, perhaps unconsciously to the receiver, impressions are made that tend to draw the soul to Christ. These may be received through meditating upon Him, through reading the Scriptures, or through hearing the word from the living preacher. Suddenly, as the Spirit comes with more direct appeal, the soul gladly surrenders itself to Jesus. By many this is called sudden conversion; but it is the result of long wooing by the Spirit of God,--a patient, protracted process."  Desire of Ages, pg 172.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #415 on: July 11, 2016, 11:05:05 AM »
I think I've said this somewhere else on RO but I want to hate sin at every level so much that I would rather die than hurt my Saviour.  There is such a fine line between the right and the wrong.  Two people can say exactly the same thing but mean two totally different things. That's why the counterfeit is so deceiving. But we have no excuse to not know the truth. It's all about where the heart is. Am I hungering and thirsting after Christ's righteousness? Or is the world holding more attraction for me. I'm not talking about terrible evils. Even things that are not wrong in and of themselves is sin if it has my affections more than Christ does.

For me it could be sewing, gardening, oil painting, reading, etc. etc. all wonderful activities but if they dominate my thinking and crowd out my time with God I'm in trouble. How many times during my life time have I come to the middle of the day and realized that I had not even spent time with God yet. Shamefully too many. I was giving Him the remnants of my time.

I was thinking the other day that if we tithed our time like we do our money we would be spending 3 hours a day in prayer and bible study consistently. Then there is the freewill offerings. I see them as time spent during the day in doing something for others.

When we understand what it means to be fully surrendered to Christ we will not be confused about Rom. 7.  Have I arrived? Oh no.  In fact the Holy Spirit is showing me daily my weaknesses and tendencies and I don't like what is being revealed to me. I'm so thankful for His promises to give me a new heart and that he will complete the work He has begun in me if I stay connected to Him moment by moment. Each new day He waits to be invited into my heart so that He can work out His will for my life that day.
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #416 on: August 28, 2016, 08:32:59 AM »
Amen, dear sister! We cannot shed our evil flesh. It is with until the Lord comes. But, through the indwelling Savior, we are given power to keep the body under, as Paul says. That evil flesh cannot rise up if we are fully surrendered to Christ Jesus. He then has cleansed our mind and heart. They are pure and holy living in the body of flesh.  What a miracle that is.

Sad is the situation with those who have no knowledge of the power of grace to transform the life. When they awaken to their evil nature, they have no power to overcome. After trying and trying to do good, they then are brought to the point of utter exhaustion and cry out "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Many have no idea that Christ has power to turn a sinner into a saint. He longs to reveal the power of His grace in each of our lives.

You, dear sister, see it right. It is a constant battle and march. There is no resting place this side of heaven. Yet, amid the battle, we have love, joy, and peace when we have Jesus in our hearts. Let us press together as we near the end.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

JimB

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #417 on: November 26, 2016, 11:29:52 AM »
Today at church when I finally had a chance to peruse the church bulletin and noticed that the title of the sermon was "What Are You Thankful For?" and the scripture was Romans 7:21-25 and to be honest I thought "oh this should be interesting" but to my pleasant surprise our associate pastor did not leave us in Romans 7 but took us to Romans 8 also.  He went to say that if you find yourself sinning like the the man in Romans 7 even if it's only one sin it's not an effort issue but rather a surrender issue and that you're not totally surrendered.  He didn't get into all the details but in today's age when so much is said that would have us to believe that Romans 7 is the experience of true Christians it was a nice and pleasant surprise.
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #418 on: January 13, 2017, 08:26:38 PM »
Yes, Jim, it is a blessing to hear the truth being preached. Here is an inspired statement for those who still believe Romans seven is the converted Christian experience.

     By sin we have been severed from the life of God. Our souls are palsied. Of ourselves we are no more capable of living a holy life than was the impotent man capable of walking. There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Let these desponding, struggling ones look up. The Saviour is bending over the purchase of His blood, saying with inexpressible tenderness and pity, "Wilt thou be made whole?" He bids you arise in health and peace. Do not wait to feel that you are made whole. Believe His word, and it will be fulfilled. Put your will on the side of Christ. Will to serve Him, and in acting upon His word you will receive strength. Whatever may be the evil practice, the master passion which through long indulgence binds both soul and body, Christ is able and longs to deliver. He will impart life to the soul that is "dead in trespasses." Ephesians 2:1. He will set free the captive that is held by weakness and misfortune and the chains of sin. DA 203.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #419 on: January 14, 2017, 06:49:54 AM »
Here is another quote....
 When man is a partaker of the divine nature, the love of Christ will be an abiding principle in the soul, and self and its peculiarities will not be exhibited. But it is sad to see those who should be vessels unto honor indulging in the gratification of the lower nature and walking in paths that conscience condemns. Men professing to be followers of Christ fall to a low level, always mourning over their shortcomings, but never overcoming and bruising Satan under their feet. Guilt and condemnation constantly burden the soul, and the cry of such might well be: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:24. Through indulgence in sin, self-respect is destroyed; and when that is gone, respect for others is lessened; we think that others are as unrighteous as we are ourselves.  {6T 52.3} 
    There are those who listen to the truth, and are convinced that they have been living in opposition to Christ. They are condemned, and they repent of their transgressions. Relying upon the merits of Christ, exercising true faith in Him, they receive pardon for sin. As they cease to do evil and learn to do well, they grow in grace and in the knowledge of God. They see that they must sacrifice in order to separate from the world; and, after counting the cost, they look upon all as loss if they may but win Christ. They have enlisted in Christ's army. The warfare is before them, and they enter it bravely and cheerfully, fighting against their natural inclinations and selfish desires, bringing the will into subjection to the will of Christ. Daily they seek the Lord for grace to obey Him, and they are strengthened and helped. This is true conversion. In humble, grateful dependence he who has been given a new heart relies upon the help of Christ. He reveals in his life the fruit of righteousness. He once loved himself. Worldly pleasure was his delight. Now his idol is dethroned, and God reigns supreme. The sins he once loved he now hates. Firmly and resolutely he follows in the path of holiness.--The Youth's Instructor, September 26, 1901. (If this is the true experience of a Christian then they would not be crying out...O wretched man that I am)
It's interesting to note that when SOP speaks of the person burdened with guilt and condemnation a "wretched man" is portrayed but a surrendered (converted) person's experience is portrayed as a warfare they enter bravely and cheerfully. 

 
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14