Romans 7 and 8

[Richard Myers]

It would be good to make the study of conversion a high priority since there is so much error in the churches. Here is a whole article that will prove to be a blessing for all who want to know what we must do to be saved. Learn of Me

[colporteur]

If a person retains salvation while sinning as some to be saying here I'm left with a couple of questions....

Why were Adam and Eve removed from the garden of Eden after only eating a piece of fruit?

Why was Moses denied entrance into the Promised land only because he lost his temper for a moment?

Contrary to what I understand scripture to be saying it appears that some believe that a good tree can indeed produce bad fruit and light and darkness can dwell together.

Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime. Is a person a bad tree and then one day instantaneously a good tree that only has good and perfect fruit or does the tree convert over one fruit at a time or maybe  some fruit at a time until it becomes the perfect tree ?

No one said Jim that there are no consequnences for sin. Look at David and Bathsheba.

Jim, I believe this boils down to the true direction of the life and the heart condition. Someone who is ultimately saved is not looking to excuse sin in the life. If it happens he is sorry and he is growing more like Christ every day. The question is not, is it ok to sin. That has been clearly answered. The question is, does a child walking to His daddy and stumbling get kicked away and disinherited or is he picked back up and encouraged as a child of God ?  Can you imagine a baby learning to walk and a daddy saying "come on child you can do it" and then when the child falls father says "you are none of mine." And when the child gets back up the father says "you are mine" and if the child trips again the father saying, "you are not mine." Until the child can walk without ever stumbling he is not converted ?  That would be cruel ! That sounds like the same tone as eternal hellfire. I hope no one here believes this.

[Mimi]

The words posted here http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=742.msg151671#msg151671 related to "curse" have been changed to "angry." I misquoted Colporteur and apologize for the unintentional misquote.

[Larry Lyons]

I am a little reluctant to get into this discussion.  It appears that people are firmly settled in their positions, but I will say this much: I believe that the underlying issue is the character of God. I do not believe God has His people on yo yo strings and pulls us in and out of our salvation as we grow in our walk with Jesus and struggle with our fallen natures, which do not suddenly disappear when we are baptized. We have been grafted into the family of God. I agree with Colporteur.  Even as human parents we do not cast aside our children and banish them from the family when every time they do something wrong. Or some describe God's people as the army of God. Even a worldly army does not kick out a soldier when he misses his target or stumbles when he marches. It takes time to grow in Christ. As Colporteur God knows the heart. He is the only one who determines who is truly converted and who is not and He alone is responsible.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phillipians 1: 6. (I think that for me it will take that long).   
It occurs to me that we need to be careful that we are not actually judging God and the work He is doing in another person.

[Wally]

I've been reluctant to get into it for some of the same reasons, Larry.  I fear that at times those who have been wrestling with this topic have been talking past each other, and the limitations of this form of communication have caused misunderstandings.  I am of a similar mind as you are, Larry, but I admit that I do not completely understand it.  One thing to ask ourselves is, am I like David, who, though he made terrible mistakes, sincerely wanted to serve God; and when confronted with his sins, immediately repented?  Or am I like Saul, who continually made excuses, and rebelled against reproof?  Am I like Peter, who really loved the Lord, but had too much confidence in himself?  He repented when reality hit him in the face.  Or am I like Judas, who loved himself more than he did anyone else?  He committed suicide when reality hit him in the face.

[Glen]

Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime.

Christ thought so, it suited His purpose, and used that analogy masterfully. The Bible record of Christ growing up is that He was made perfect by the things He suffered (endured). -And He represented humanity, inhabited by divinity; thus it may be with us. EGW clearly challenges the Pastors and Bible workers to closely examine candidates for Baptism; to search them closely, to see whether they have ceased to sin. If the Baptismal Instruction were given by those possessed by God's Spirit, and His life as a man the sole example and authority, perhaps there would be fewer of Satan's people joined to "our" churches. I say this, because I was one of the latter. I retained spirits of devils as a professing SDA Christian into my adult life; I was NOT a Christian; born of His Spirit. I too, press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:14

We must hasten to redeem the time and get back to basics, the fundamentals of the Christ-life. During the Anti-typical Day of Atonement we simply don't "have time to sin"(sic), and the sooner we give the trumpet that certain sound, by circumspect lives ourselves (humanity inhabited by divinity), the sooner we can go HOME !

The obedience that Christ rendered is exactly the obedience that God requires from human beings today. It was the obedience of a son. He served His Father in willingness and freedom, and with love, because it was the right thing for Him to do. “I delight to do Thy will, O My God,” He declared; “yea, Thy law is within My heart.” Thus we are to serve God..... The Signs of the Times January 25, 1899.09

Are we truly "taking advantage" of the power God has given to become as "son of God" (John 1:12)? One of the definitions in the 1828 Noah Webster's Dictionary is: "One that tears by violence."

....from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. Matthew 11:12

“The kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.” This violence takes in the whole heart. To be double minded is to be unstable. Resolution, self-denial and consecrated effort are required for the work of preparation. The understanding and the conscience may be united; but if the will is not set to work, we shall make a failure. Every faculty and feeling must be engaged. Ardor and earnest prayer must take the place of listlessness and indifference. Only by earnest, determined effort and faith in the merits of Christ can we overcome, and gain the kingdom of heaven. Our time for work is short. Christ is soon to come the second time (The Youth’s Instructor, May 24, 1900).

…Nothing will God accept of you but an indwelling Jesus; Christ alone… Manuscript Releases Volume Sixteen 236.01

—Joseph illustrates Christ. Jesus came to His own, but His own received Him not. He was rejected and despised, because His acts were righteous, and His consistent, self-denying life was a continual rebuke upon those who professed piety, but whose lives were corrupt. Joseph’s integrity and virtue were fiercely assailed, and she who would lead him astray could not prevail, therefore her hatred was strong against the virtue and integrity which she could not corrupt, and she testified falsely against him. The innocent suffered because of his righteousness. He was cast into prison because of his virtue. Joseph was sold to his enemies by his own brethren for a small sum of money. The Son of God was sold to His bitterest enemies by one of His own disciples. Jesus was meek and holy. His was a life of unexampled self-denial, goodness, and holiness. He was not guilty of any wrong. Yet false witnesses were hired to testify against Him. He was hated because He had been a faithful reprover of sin and corruption. Joseph’s brethren stripped him of his coat of many colors. The executioners of Jesus cast lots for His seamless coat (Spiritual Gifts 3:174).

The life of God  was manifested in the flesh, and was the living word, and the life of God was manifested in human speech. The human agent who becomes familiar with the Scriptures and who is a doer of the Word, will find that the Word is interwoven with the life of the soul; for he will have a personal experience in the things of God… When surrounded with temptations, the Holy Spirit will bring to his mind the very words with which to meet the temptation at the very moment when they are most needed, and he can use them effectually with commanding power. The apostle says, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly… The Signs of the Times 09-05-95.03


 

[colporteur]

Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime.

Christ thought so, and used that analogy masterfully. The Bible record of Christ growing up is that He was made perfect by the things He suffered (endured). -And He represented humanity, inhabited by divinity; thus it may be with us. EGW clearly challenges the Pastors and Bible workers to closely examine candidates for Baptism; to search them closely, to see whether they have ceased to sin. If the Baptismal Instruction were given by those possesed by God's Spirit, and His life as a man the sole example and authority, perhaps there would be fewer of Satan's people joined to "our" churches. I say this, because I was one of them. I retained spirits of devils as a professing SDA Christian into my adult life. We must hasten to redeem the time and get back to basics, the fundamentals of the Christ-life. During the Anti-typical Day of Atonement we simply don't "have time to sin"(sic), and the sooner we give the trumpet that certain sound, by circumspect lives, ourselves, the sooner we can go HOME !

  I agree that Christ used the analogy masterfully, however He did not say the analogy of a tree was perfect and one cannot say that He thought it was. It is a good one but you can take any analogy too far and even miss the point. How about the Rich Man and Lazarus ? Symbols and analogies are useful tools but they are  never perfect.

Webster College Dictionary- "analogy"  "A similarity between like features of two things"....."a form of reasoning in which one thing is inferred to be similar to another thing in a certain respect, on the basic of known similarites in other respects." emphasis mine.

Do you believe that sanctification in terms of total victory over every sin is necessarily instantaneous ? In other words when a person has been closely inspected before baptism and deemed by the most diserning eye does this mean they are perfect in every way regarding a victorious Christian  life ? If so we only baptize the 144,000 as they have arrived. Don't get me wrong I agree  that there is almost total failure in terms of baptizing candidates. The pastor here said he would baptize anyone who walks in off the street and wants to be baptized. Down at Hartland College they take their candidates through at least two complete series of Bible studies before even considering baptism. Of course there are other criteria.

I doubt that few trees ever went from being a bad tree to a totally good tree with perfect fruit, in a moment. Does it happen and must it happen ? absolutelty !  But remember that the Gardener took the tree that was not producing and dung it and gave it time to produce. Unfortunately  it did not produce but if it had it would have been a process of bearing fruit not a bad three one day and a luxurious, edenic perfect fruit bearing tree the next. If we expect trees to turn from being perfectly evil to perfectly pure in a moment without a transitional period we will be sorely disappointed, repeatedly.

If we are determined to make an analogy fit perfectly in every respect then every tree bearing good fruit would never have an apple (for instance) that was wormy or rotten. The  gardener may pick off the bad fruit but even this is a process. The question is not whether or not a good tree produces good fruit, as we are told we would know them by their fruits. The question is ...does a bad tree go from being a bad three with bad fruit to a edenic perfect tree with fruit that does not even have a blemish in one day ?

[JimB]

Is the tree a perfect analogy? Sanctification is progressive work of a lifetime.

Cp, I agree with you that sanctification is the work of a lifetime. So I'm happy that we agree with that. However, yes, I believe that the tree is the perfect analogy otherwise Christ would not have used it.

Here is what I know. Sin causes an automatic separation between the sinner and Christ. Peter learned that the hard way when he took his eyes off Christ while walking on the water. Did Christ abandon him and turn a walk away? Absolutely not!! Christ was there as soon as Peter cried out for mercy. If Christ completely castoff every sinner no one would ever be saved.

Here is what I know...

Joh_8:34  Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Correct me if I'm wrong but as I understand what you believe you'd say that when we sin Christ does not leave the heart but still dwells inside. Yet, Christ says that we cannot serve two masters. So I'm having difficulties making those two concepts mesh. I also do not find a Bible text that says Christ remains in the heart of one who has sinned and hasn't repented. The Bible says He stands outside the door and knocks and if Christ is not in the heart how is it that he or she still has salvation?

If a person is abiding in Christ and Christ in him then he has the mind of Christ and he is partaking in the divine nature.

1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

2Pe_1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

How does one have the mind of Christ and the divine nature while sinning? He certainly hasn't escaped corruption.

Let me ask again about the two examples I gave. If one still has salvation after sinning and before repenting what is your understanding of God casting out Adam and Eve and not only prohibiting Moses from entering the promised land but also laying him to rest?

[colporteur]

Let me ask again about the two examples I gave. If one still has salvation after sinning and before repenting what is your understanding of God casting out Adam and Eve and not only prohibiting Moses from entering the promised land but also laying him to rest?

First, did God end Adam and Eve's probation when they sinned ? The same with Moses. There are consequences to sin but provision was made for a probationary period, a second chance, in terms of salvation. That means that after they sinned there was a space of time where a determination would be made as to whether they would  saved or lost. Adam and Eve were cast form the garden whether they repented or not. Were they cast from the garden because they were lost or because they sinned ?  if I'm not mistaken they were cast from the garden after they had repented.  Moses repented but he still was kept back from the promised land. If Moses was a type that meant that all who sinned would be kept from heaven, then it would be true that all who have sinned and repented would  likewise be kept back from heaven. I know you do not believe that. Do you think those examples are making your intended point ? We agree there are consequences to sin, serious ones. We also agree that if one continues in sin they forfeit salvation and reject the provision made.
   

  If one truly is in a saving relationship  will he not have a repentant heart even WHEN he falls ?  There is no sinning and being saved if the heart is traveling along a path of unrepentance and rebellion. Having said that, does not repentance begin in the heart even though we may not be able to tell right away if the person has repented, neither is it our call. I am not convinced that all sin is intentional rebellion against God even if it is known sin. The heart may be right with God and yet the flesh is weak  and God is teaching the soul to lean more on him for deliverance. Maybe in some cases over eating, for instance, may fall into that category. Sometimes people do that because they are suffering and their past  has been such a mess that they eat for comfort. Does that mean their heart is in rebellion with God ? Yes they need to change and get victory but the condition of the heart is the question.

  I said several posts ago that I was going to stop posting on this thread and I have continued. I think of this every time I post here. Some would suggest I feed off of debating and I would like this to be another instance where I reveal otherwise. Our discussion seems to be alot of repeating anyway.

[JimB]

First, did God end Adam and Eve's probation when they sinned ?

Cp, I don't think we are in disagreement over probation. Like I said earlier if God would cast us off completely when we sin no one would be saved.

Adam and Eve were cast form the garden whether they repented or not. Were they cast from the garden because they were lost or because they sinned?

This is where we disagree. I see no difference based on the following verse.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Actually, Paul says it better than I can in the first few verses before verse 23. This speaks perfectly to my point of not serving two masters.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16  Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17  But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18  Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20  For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21  What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22  But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

We also agree that if one continues in sin they forfeit salvation and reject the provision made.

How many sins does it take before Romans 6:23 becomes a reality?

[Cop]

Here is more food for thought:

The Saviour said, "Except a man be born from above," unless he shall receive a new heart, new desires, purposes, and motives, leading to a new life, "he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3, margin. The idea that it is necessary only to develop the good that exists in man by nature, is a fatal deception. "The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again." 1 Corinthians 2:14; 3:7. Of Christ it is written, "In Him was life; and the life was the light of men"--the only "name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." John 1:4; Acts 4:12.  {SC 18.2}
     It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.  {SC 19.1}

Howdy my dear Sister. Its so good to be able to talk with you all again. I've thought of you, and prayed for you, often while I was unable to get on-line. I hope you are dong well.

My wife and I read from the SOP every evening during our worship. We have just started going through SC again. It is my favorite book from Sister White and I love it! We read these beautiful word just tonight:

[/It is impossible for us, of ourselves, to escape from the pit of sin in which we are sunken. Our hearts are evil, and we cannot change them. "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one." "The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." Job 14:4; Romans 8:7. Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before men can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness.  SC 18.1

It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness, of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good." "The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, "I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:16, 12, 14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Romans 7:24, margin. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29.  SC 19.2

Its true that like minds (controlled by the Holy Spirit) are led to the same book!  Praise the LORD!!

[Mimi]

Amen!! It is beautiful!

[Mimi]

There are times when it is very necessary to step back, have a prayerful, studious day immersed in Scripture and Inspiration. That is what I did today - laying aside everything else - with a holy expectation of coming to a better understanding of what is written for our admonition, for our advancement and ultimately our salvation. From every angle of this topic, what we believe it says, has eternal consequences. That is a heavy thought and because of the weight of our beliefs, we must be found on the right side of the issue. We cannot afford anything else.

The past week or so has been very difficult on the hearts and minds of my brothers and sisters, to say nothing of those two men I work closest with, and me. At one point today I thought of Christian forums in general, and how many have been turned into a Christianized sport of combativeness, baseless opinions, presumptions, statements based on tradition, culture and entertainment. Some are even associated with our denomination in which a “thus saith the Lord” is not taken all that seriously and Inspiration is all but discarded. I am glad to say that is not who we are. And further, I pray that is something we will never become. By the all-powerful grace of God may we remain faithful and true to His Word and the messengers He sends for added understanding of what it is He is telling us. I want to know and have no doubt in my mind that those reading and posting want to know as well. No one wants to come up short.

An unaided mind can comprehend the commonalities of life but spiritual things are spiritually discerned. Yes, you have heard it a thousand times, yet it remains true and even more so when dealing with the foundation of Biblical faith and doctrine that runs through Romans 7 & 8. We are in the thick of discovering them.
 
Today I spent a substantial amount of time in the topics, Justification by Faith, Abide in Me and I in You, Romans 7 & 8, and the majority of the book of Romans and anything Inspiration has to say on any of them. I wanted to meet what I believe to be erroneous beliefs recently stated in our topic. This is what I found and because there is absolutely no desire to impart my own reasoning, Inspiration will speak for itself: 

A few days ago, Carla posted this:

A converted person is not a perfect person, otherwise Jesus would have come already. My goal is perfection, here and now, before Jesus comes, but there are times when I do that which I hate.

King David was a converted person as a youth. Did he go back and forth from being converted to being unconverted? No, there were times he sinned. But that did not change him into an unconverted person.

Inspiration says this:

David repented and was reconverted.

Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. Why try to be more minute than is Inspiration on the vital question of righteousness by faith? Why try to work out every minute point, as if the salvation of the soul depended upon all having exactly your understanding of this matter? All cannot see in the same line of vision. You are in danger of making a world of an atom, and an atom of a world. {CTr 150.2}

As penitent sinners, contrite before God, discern Christ’s atonement in their behalf, and accept this atonement as their only hope in this life and the future life, their sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith. Every believing soul is to conform his or her will entirely to God’s will, and keep in a state of repentance and contrition, exercising faith in the atoning merits of the Redeemer, and advancing from strength to strength, from glory to glory. Pardon and justification are one and the same thing. . . . {CTr 150.3}

Justification is the opposite of condemnation. God’s boundless mercy is exercised toward those who are wholly undeserving. He forgives transgressions and sins for the sake of Jesus, who has become the propitiation for our sins. Through faith in Christ the guilty transgressor is brought into favor with God and into the strong hope of life eternal. . . . {CTr 150.4}

David was pardoned of his transgression because he humbled his heart before God in repentance and contrition of soul and believed that God’s promise to forgive would be fulfilled. He confessed his sin, repented, and was reconverted. In the rapture of the assurance of forgiveness he exclaimed, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.” The blessing comes because of pardon; pardon comes through faith that the sin, confessed and repented of, is borne by the great Sin-bearer. Thus from Christ cometh all our blessings. His death is an atoning sacrifice for our sins. He is the great medium through whom we receive the mercy and favor of God. He, then, is indeed the Originator, the Author, as well as the Finisher, of our faith.—Manuscript 21, 1891 (Manuscript Releases, vol. 9, pp. 300, 301).


Regarding conversion and reconversion, I found this:

We need to study our Bibles, and learn daily lessons at the feet of Christ. The formation of character is an individual, personal work; and in this work of character building, it is the privilege of every youth in the midst of abounding iniquity, to make it manifest that he is humble in heart, that he is imbued with the Spirit of God.  {YI, April 27, 1909 par. 10} 
     Christ is watching to see what spirit we will bring into our service for him. If we realize this, we shall seek to be reconverted daily. Our influence will grow sweeter, and no trace of the spirit that Satan loves to exercise will be seen in our lives. The blessedness of true religion will be revealed in unselfish, compassionate labor for others.
                                                            Mrs. E. G. White.
                                                                -
  {YI, April 27, 1909 par. 11}


Today, Brother Larry posted this:

I am a little reluctant to get into this discussion.  It appears that people are firmly settled in their positions, but I will say this much: I believe that the underlying issue is the character of God. I do not believe God has His people on yo yo strings and pulls us in and out of our salvation as we grow in our walk with Jesus and struggle with our fallen natures, which do not suddenly disappear when we are baptized. We have been grafted into the family of God. I agree with Colporteur.  Even as human parents we do not cast aside our children and banish them from the family when every time they do something wrong. Or some describe God's people as the army of God. Even a worldly army does not kick out a soldier when he misses his target or stumbles when he marches. It takes time to grow in Christ. As Colporteur God knows the heart. He is the only one who determines who is truly converted and who is not and He alone is responsible.

"Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phillipians 1: 6. (I think that for me it will take that long).   

It occurs to me that we need to be careful that we are not actually judging God and the work He is doing in another person.

And Wally followed with this:

I've been reluctant to get into it for some of the same reasons, Larry.  I fear that at times those who have been wrestling with this topic have been talking past each other, and the limitations of this form of communication have caused misunderstandings.  I am of a similar mind as you are, Larry, but I admit that I do not completely understand it.  One thing to ask ourselves is, am I like David, who, though he made terrible mistakes, sincerely wanted to serve God; and when confronted with his sins, immediately repented?  Or am I like Saul, who continually made excuses, and rebelled against reproof?  Am I like Peter, who really loved the Lord, but had too much confidence in himself?  He repented when reality hit him in the face.  Or am I like Judas, who loved himself more than he did anyone else?  He committed suicide when reality hit him in the face.

And Inspiration says this:

But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {RH, November 4, 1890 par. 4}  {FW 100.1}

The statement, in order for man to retain justification clearly presupposes when he has it, he can lose it.

Earlier, we read: "Pardon and justification are one in the same thing." Is it logical to then say each time we sin, we lose our justification and must be rejustified?

It is not God who has His people on yo yo strings. We place ourselves on them.


Another thing I found is this from 12MR 40: one blot upon the character, one sin unconfessed and unrepented of, will close for you the gates of the city of God.

In context, here is the quote:

Be careful not to make any move that will retard this work. There is much to be done, but the Lord would not have you or me fret our lives away, and lose our faith and courage because this work does not move as fast as we think it ought to. The Lord will help us if we will keep the word of His patience. I sometimes ask myself whether it can be my duty to go on writing the same things over and over again, just because our people will not heed what is already written. I do not wish to overtax myself and unbalance my mind by trying to perform impossibilities.  {12MR 40.1} 
     Let us encourage our hearts in hope. Let us pray much and quietly wait for the Lord to do His work. Let us do what we can in simplicity and with the grace of Christ, not exercising our powers in things too high for us.--Letter 123, 1904, pp. 1, 2. (To J. E. White, March 29, 1904.)  {12MR 40.2} 
     Do not appeal to your own sympathies. Do not dwell upon what Brother J has done or has neglected to do. Humble your own heart before God. You are not to sit in judgment upon the case of others until you show greater wisdom in making straight paths for your own feet. You may say, "Does Sister White think me all bad?" No, I do not; but one blot upon the character, one sin unconfessed and unrepented of, will close for you the gates of the city of God. You had light; you had knowledge, but did not choose to appropriate it. It meant someone else, not you. I love your soul, and I beseech you not to be deceived, but to see that you must follow the Lord with undivided heart.  {12MR 40.3} 
     The Saviour chose Judas, not because he was perfect in character, but notwithstanding his defects. He would give him the advantage of His own lessons of godliness, His own perfect and righteous example, that he might choose the beauty of holiness. Judas was always thinking that he would reform, but then he thought that his good qualities would counterbalance his hereditary and cultivated traits which were evil.  {12MR 41.1}  Letter 17, 1891, pp. 14, 15. (To a leading worker, July 20, 1891.)

White Estate Washington, D. C. May 20, 1982  {12MR 41.2}

[Cop]

I believe that we must read the Bible just as its written and that Paul is speaking of his life after conversion. While I have not read each and every post in this thread, and being just a dumb ol' country boy, it appears to me that all here are agreed that a Christian will not, and can not, continue in known sin. Is this correct? Does anyone believe differently?

It also appears that some are fearful that if it is accepted that Paul is speaking in the present tense of his daily battle with sin as he grows in Christ, that many will believe the heresy that a Christian can continue committing known sin until Christ's return. Is this correct?

We are told in God's word that we can have assurance of salvation, that it not an off-again, on-again salvation. But this appears to be what some are saying. Does anyone here believe this?

When I was first directed to look at my life, the direction I was going, and the eternal results of the way I was living, I looked at God's Ten Commandments and saw that I was doomed. At that moment, it felt as if all my sins were being loaded upon my back and I really felt felt as if something was pressing me into the floor. I was directed to Jesus and, as I looked upon Him, my heart broke as I saw that I, and I alone, had caused His suffering by my sins. I cried out to Him for forgiveness, begged for His mercy and asked Him to save me from my sins. At that moment, I felt the burden on my back literly fall away. Though I was crying like a baby, I felt such joy as I had never experienced. I knew He had forgiven me and taken my sins away. From that moment, He changed me and removed many of my sinful habits and my desire to do them. I truely felt like a new man, a different person and I was in love with Jesus, my saviour.

From that instant, I had a different outlook on life, new desires and shame for my past. I began attending church whenever it was opened and reading my Bible in order to learn His will for my life. But for several months afterwards, I continued to smoke and drink. As I discovered that my Lord did not wish for me to do these things, and with His help and strength, I put these things out of my life.  Was I really born-again at that time, or was I lstill lost? Did I not really have salvation because I was smoking and drinking alcohol?

As far as I know, no one here is sinless and has reach perfection as yet. (I defintely know I haven't!)  I believe that if a Christian does sin, the Holy Spirit will speak to his heart and convict him of his sin. If he refuses to obey the H.S. and repent, confess, and forsake his sin, he is rejecting God and will eventually be left in his sins. Without God's work upon man's soul, he can not repent, he can not confess his sin, he has no desire for forgiveness, no desire for righteouness, no longing for holiness...in other words, we can do nothing without Christ. I believe that this is what Paul is saying.

[Mimi]

I believe that we must read the Bible just as its written and that Paul is speaking of his life after conversion. While I have not read each and every post in this thread, and being just a dumb ol' country boy, it appears to me that all here are agreed that a Christian will not, and can not, continue in known sin. Is this correct? Does anyone believe differently?

It also appears that some are fearful that if it is accepted that Paul is speaking in the present tense of his daily battle with sin as he grows in Christ, that many will believe the heresy that a Christian can continue committing known sin until Christ's return. Is this correct?

We are told in God's word that we can have assurance of salvation, that it not an off-again, on-again salvation. But this appears to be what some are saying. Does anyone here believe this?

As sinful humans, we place ourselves on Brother Lyon's example of a yo yo, off-again, on-again salvation cycle because of sin. God does not do it to us. Please read the post just above yours to see what Inspiration says.

[Richard Myers]

We are told in God's word that we can have assurance of salvation, that it not an off-again, on-again salvation. But this appears to be what some are saying. Does anyone here believe this?

Dear brother, the assurance of salvation is precious. We may want to consider where we find it and on what basis it is given.  I believe it is based upon a full surrender and the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the sinner. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. We must be born of the Spirit. If we do not actively seek Jesus, if we allow our mind to wander away from Jesus, there is no assurance that we shall find Him again. It is not that He has foresaken us when we sin a known sin, as Jim stated, but He does not remain in a heart that is not fully given to Him. Like Peter in the water, Jesus is reaching out waiting for us to invite Him back into our hearts. We do not believe in once saved always saved or any form of it. We may confess our sinfulness and inability to do any good thing but, unless fully surrendered and born of His Spirit, we have no power apart from Jesus. In order to do any good thing, one must be connected to Christ, filled with His Spirit. If we have not His Spirit we are none of His. I think you can recognize that all I have said is from Scripture. But, then if we all understood that, we would not be disagreeing on the conditions of salvation. You may want to review some of the posts to see the Scriptural basis for salvation.

Without God's work upon man's soul, he can not repent, he can not confess his sin, he has no desire for forgiveness, no desire for righteouness, no longing for holiness...in other words, we can do nothing without Christ. I believe that this is what Paul is saying.

Amen! That is exactly what he is saying throughout the New Testament. But, it does not end there. Paul, like Jesus, makes it very clear that salvation is dependent upon an entire surrender of the will to Jesus. Paul unlike Jesus, comes at it from many different directions in his effort to meet the error that has come into the church since the ascension of Jesus. Romans is a very good Book to understand what Paul says is necessary for eternal life. And he makes it perfectly clear that the requirement does not stop with one's initial conversion, it must be maintained day by day, moment by moment. And, while Paul's teaching can be hard, the teaching of our Lord is simple enough for a child to understand. So, even though this has been covered in detail in many of the forums and topics here, we will now repeat what Jesus and Paul have taught.

[Glen]

I believe this boils down to the true direction of the life and the heart condition of one who continues to crawl? Someone who is ultimately saved is not looking to excuse sin in the life. If it happens he is sorry and he is growing more like Christ every day. The question is not, is it ok to sin. That has been clearly answered. The question is, does a child walking to His daddy and stumbling get kicked away and disinherited or is he picked back up and encouraged as a child of God ?  Can you imagine a baby learning to walk and a daddy saying "come on child you can do it" and then when the child falls father says "you are none of mine." And when the child gets back up the father says "you are mine" and if the child trips again the father saying, "you are not mine." Until the child can walk without ever stumbling he is not converted ?  That would be cruel ! That sounds like the same tone as eternal hellfire. I hope no one here believes this.

"....this boils down to the true direction of the life and the heart condition of one who continues to crawl?" Brother, I think you have the truth of it. - -How long do we plan to be a baby? What is "the true direction of the life and the heart condition" of one who keeps stumbling? ....he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 2 Peter 1:9 - -BLIND babies who claim to be born again, converted, who lack either virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, godliness, brotherly kindness, or love, or all of the above. If any one of us continue in this vein, do we intend to take it to heaven? Those who have not the Spirit of God, all claims to being a baby notwithstanding, will not enter there.

....ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Romans 8:9

…Christ must dwell in your hearts, as the blood is in the body, and circulate there as a vitalizing power. On this subject we cannot be too urgent.  Testimonies for the Church Volume Seven 189.02

My brother, my sister, God's purpose for you is that you shall live a life that will make others better--a life which will show that Christ is formed within.... Reflecting Christ 107.05

God's purpose in filling us with His fulness through the impartation of the Spirit of Christ is that we grow up, henceforth be no more children, tossed to and from, and carried about with every wind of doctrine. I'm here encouraging everyone of us to look to Jesus. I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1 Corinthians 2:2 has to do with each of us comprehending that we take up our cross, daily denying self; letting Him take what He came to this earth to nail on the cross, forever -- our sins of the past as well as "self". All the good works that are righteousness, purest LOVE, are ours, IN CHRIST, right now. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Do I believe in instant Sanctification? No; however, the sooner we let Jesus possess us with His (s)Spirit, the sooner we are His instrument, a sharpened sickle for the harvest; so full of His presence and character, that the lost will recognize us as having been with Jesus, and are a window to heaven, made a part of the Great Plan of Redemption. How can we be Saviours of mankind like our Master unless WE overcome sin, ourselves?

There will be agents of Satan who will induce to sin; but the steady soul who loves and fears God, will be as firm in his Heaven-inspired purpose as was Daniel, and will not be swerved from his convictions of duty. There will always be those in high places who have never subdued and overcome self. These Satan uses as decoys. They flatter the pleasure-lovers by uniting with them. They court their approval. God has a work for his faithful ones to do, to stand in defense of the truth like faithful Noah. They will warn and entreat, and show by their works their faith. They stand as God’s agents, as Noah stood, in noble, whole-souled fidelity, the moral character untarnished. They are saviours of men like their Master. They will be exposed to hatred and reproach as was their Master. Enmity will be aroused, hatred and false accusations will pour like a torrent around them to wrench them from their high moral position, but they have their foundation on the Rock, and remain unmoved at their chosen post of duty, warning, entreating, rebuking sin and pleasure-lovers by their moral rectitude and circumspect conversation. God’s servants who will hear the “Well done” from his divine lips, will be heroic ministers of righteousness, although they may not preach in the desk. They are constantly ministering, loyal to their sense of God’s claims upon them, jealous of their own selves, lest they shall dishonor the Lord that taught them to stand in defense of right and duty at any loss to themselves. This is the work of the Christian soldier. That which will stand under the pressure of temptation is heart religion. The whole heart must be given to God; if any portion of it be withheld, we have no right to claim the promise of being the favored sons and daughters of God. Counsels to Physicians and Medical Students 5.02

Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 THAT we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.... Ephesians 4:13-15

How strongly and brightly shines the mercy and lovingkindness of God in His dealings toward His heritage.... All heaven has the deepest interest in our welfare, that Satan shall not control us and conform us to his character. “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall” (Malachi 4:1, 2)....
This Day With God, Page 123.03

Sometimes it just seems that we want to leave all the growing up, as Christians, to the time described above, "as calves in the stall." We are each called to ....be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Ephesians 6:10-13

Brothers and Sisters, I love this fellowship of dialogue and humbly express my appreciation for your patience. Let's continue praying for one another that we may be healed. We're told that Christ healed not only physically, but spiritually when He walked on this earth.

[Mimi]

Brothers and Sisters, I love this fellowship of dialogue and humbly express my appreciation for your patience. Let's continue praying for one another that we may be healed. We're told that Christ healed not only physically, but spiritually when He walked on this earth.

It is a blessing well beyond expression! Thank you, Glen!

[Richard Myers]

Amen, it is always a blessing when Christians are willing to study from Scripture and submit to its authority. Sadly, some rise up against it and are offended, but God has a people who love Him and keep His commandments. They will be known by their fruits. This is the manner in which we are to judge those who profess to be Christian and even those who do not. It is the truth that we have been given in Scripture.
Matthew
  7:13   Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 
  7:14   Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 
  7:15   Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 
  7:16   Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 
  7:17   Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 
  7:18   A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 
  7:19   Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 
  7:20   Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 
  7:21   Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

Notice how the Words of Jesus are confirmed by the Words of Paul.

Romans eight
 8:1   There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 

After telling of his failure to keep the law when conviction first came to his heart, Paul then tells of the power given to the true convert who with his mind is serving God instead of the flesh. He begins this with a description of who it is that has life, who is not under condemnation. It is not the one who professes to serve God, but who is serving God by walking in the Spirit, one who is filled with the Spirit. This is not human wisdom, but a "thus saith the Lord".  As our Brother Cop said, "we must read the Bible just as its written."

  8:2   For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 

In Romans seven we read the Paul could not keep the law. "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." verse 23. Now, when filled with God's Spirit and walking in His Spirit, Paul has been delivered from his captivity to the law of sin and death. Notice the wording. It is important and overlooked by those who think one may sin and be saved. "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." To have life, to be set free from sin, one must be "in Christ Jesus".  Thus saith the Lord "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.  If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." John 15:4-7.

  8:3   For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 
  8:4   That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 
  8:5   For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 
  8:6   For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 

The great deception that has come into the churches is that one is saved in sin, that one is saved while sinning, that one sin does not reveal a separation between Christ and the sinner. Thus saith the Lord "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. Notice again that Christ is the key, He is the power. We must be abiding in Jesus to have life. It is "through Jesus Christ" that one has life.

  8:7   Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 
  8:8   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 

Paul is telling us that if we are walking in the flesh, that is sin, we cannot please God. But, do not say that we have life when do not please God, that flies in the face of what Paul and Jesus are saying. Thus saith the Lord
  8:9   But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 

Notice again what many fail to understand. Only those who have the Spirit of God in them are not walking in the flesh. This truth is not being acknowledged by many in the church. When this is understood the deception will be removed for many. There is life only for those who walk in the Spirit, because it is the only way one may have life, to have "the Spirit of God dwell in you." And "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." This is a very narrow road, but it is a "thus saith the Lord."  And as our Brother Cop has so correctly stated, we need to take the Bible as it is written. We are not at liberty to reject it because it does not agree with our experience or our understanding. It is true that there may be a verse or two that appears to be contrary to the truth, but one verse does not a doctrine make. We are to look at all of Scripture and then we shall not be deceived. In this post, we have not taken a verse out of context, but it can clearly be seen that what Paul is teaching is that we must be walking in the Spirit, not in the flesh to have eternal life. If we are walking in the flesh, sinning, then we are under condemnation. Thus saith the Lord, "If ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:13,14. 

[Richard Myers]

It often is the case that Scripture is taken out of context and twisted to make it say something that it was not meant to. But, in the lesson here, we are not taking verses out of their context, we are presenting whole passages so that the truth can be seen.  And, from other places in the Bible we find the same lesson. We must be born again continually to be justified in having eternal life, salvation. Thus saith the Lord "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." Galatians 5:24.  And the same Apostle Paul who wrote Galatians and Romans wrote this. Thus saith the Lord "I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway."  1 Cor. 9:27. When Paul says "body" what does he mean? He is talking about his flesh. The power of grace has been under estimated by most. When we allow God's grace into the heart, there is a "radical transformation" of character. The sinner becomes a new creature. But, a failure to understand why, leads to misunderstanding of what conversion is. The reason why there is a change in character is not because man has some innate power or goodness within. No, it is because the Holy Spirit has taken possession of the heart and mind. Thus saith the Lord "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Philippians 2:5. And again, as in Romans eight, notice how a man is able to keep his flesh under. Thus saith the Lord "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." Ezekiel 36:26,27. The honor and glory go to God,  not to man. If we have Christ enthroned upon the heart, then we have power to obey. If we do not have His Spirit, we do  not have power and cannot obey and we are none of His. What is needed? A reconversion, a new Spirit within. Christ is not in the heart of one who sins a known sin. He does not forsake the sinner, but pleads for entrance. He stands at the door knocking. It is only when the Spirit of God is IN the heart that we have eternal life. Thus saith the Lord "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus..." 2 Timothy 1:1.