Author Topic: Romans 7 and 8  (Read 105982 times)

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James Saptenno

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »

There is a repetition in Romans 8:3,4, but here is talking about something else. It is a truth that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in a believer who walks not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Of his being “in Christ” by faith a believer will be led to a life which walks after the Spirit and bear fruits of the Spirit which no law is against it (Galatians 5:22,23). The Spirit in him will harmonize his heart with the law of God, purified his soul as long as he stands right “in Christ”. By choosing the way of the flesh, a believer steps out from “in Christ” as he walks not in “the way, the truth and the life” which is Christ Jesus but in the way of the flesh which is in his own lust, a life for self instead of living for God (II Corinthians 5:15).

Thus, a believer can not boast that because of his works  to “walk after the Spirit,” he is righteous, justified and saved. But it is all because of faith.

In His love

James S.


Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2001, 06:38:00 PM »
Brother James, it is good to have you back with us. Sorry to hear of your computer troubles.  I was thinking of you yesterday. We came upon an automobile accident and being the first on the scene I gave comfort to the young lady who was injured. She was Indonesian. The Lord spared her life and she called today to thank us for the help and the copy of The Desire of Ages I gave her.

Brother James, the "evangelical" gospel has one saved in their sins and their "new" bibles reflect their theology. The King James version text in Romans 8:1 is in harmony not only with Romans 8:3 and 4, but with the whole Bible in this meaning. I chose the verses in context so that none could take them out of context as you are attempting to do. If you read the whole commentary I have given, you will see a consistency that refutes the "evangelical" gospel of being saved while sinning.

You do not have the liberty to remove the context of Romans 8:1 from 8:3,4. They are speaking of the very same thing. Paul has been on the same subject from the beginning and clearly there is no change between verse 1 and 4. Let us continue to read and we find further support for the gospel of grace giving power to keep the law of God (the fruits of the Spirit).
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2001, 07:01:00 PM »
Verse 5 supports Romans 8:1. Those that abide in Christ have His Spirit within and they walk after the Spirit for they are surrendered to Him. It is not salvation by works, but rather the fruit of the relationship with Christ.  Verse 6 expresses the very same principle that Paul is trying to get across. If we have the mind of Christ, we have life. If we have a carnal mind, walking in the flesh, we have the condemnation of the broken law and thus death. "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." This whole discussion is indicating that we (Christians) have found that through Christ we can overcome sin; we can escape the "captivity to the law of sin" which is in our members. Praise God that through Christ we can "walk in the light as He is in the light." This is not salvation by works, but works by salvation. "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me." Amen. It is Christ, not I. No salvation by works. It is salvation by grace, the grace of Jesus Christ. This great love of God for us while we are yet sinners, if allowed into the  heart will transform the nature. We become partakers of the divine nature. The Holy Spirit is revealed in the life of the Christian. These good works are the fruit of Christ in the life.

Let me add another important point that none should overlook. Even with the good works that Christ works in the life of the true believer, salvation is not possible. The wages of one sin, is death. All have sinned. The only way any man can be saved is by the great suffering and death of our Saviour. Period. There is no way that one can atone for their own sins or the sins of another. Only God could do this and He did so willingly. Let not one accusation be made that what has been said in this thread has any measure of salvation by works. It is not so, not in the least.

One last comment on this subject. The good works that are seen in the life of the true believer is there only as one abides in Christ, for it is Christ that is doing the work. The moment one looks away from Jesus, self takes over. The motive becomes selfish without a living connection to Christ. Without the Spirit of Christ in the heart, man is not in a "saved" condition. His works are full of selfishness.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »

Having been personally challenged to come to grips with the teaching here in Romans 7:5-8:14, the following is the first results of studying this portion. What I have done is reviewed all the postings of members here,copied the thread to my word document for working on, then just eliminated all the non-essential as well as the name of the person writing so as not to be influenced by my relationship to the writer when it comes to looking for understanding truth.
The text I have read in two German translations, four English and the commentaries of others to work this text through.

Romans, 7:5-8:14

Important wording within the members postings:
Victory
Filled with the Holy Spirit
Surrender of the will
We were lost
Acts of sin
The sin of ignorance
Would be christian
Worldy person
Carnal person
Broken law ( I am of the viewpoint that the law of God in it’s substance can never be broken by man. I prefer the expression of transgression against law of God, or against the word of God./Joan)
Delivered from the law
Held dead by the law
Condemnation of the law
Spirit of the law
Conviction of the law
 
(Asterix is before a member’s posting I am quoting here which relates to the verse given. Then comes my comment)
   
*In context of these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.
     
Romans 7:5.
"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."

*Paul is talking about when we were lost without a Saviour. He says that the acts of sin, which were revealed by the law of God, did work through our flesh to bring us under the condemnation of broken law.

*Bible Studies on the Book of Romans "by E.J.Waggoner.
"What is the difference between the would-be Christian, who knows the law, but does not keep it, and the worlding who does not keep the law, and does not acknowledge that it is good?
Simply this: We are unwilling slaves, and they are willing slaves. We are all the time distracted and sorrowful, and getting nothing out of life at all, while the worlding does not worry himself in the least." p.54
 
*A knowledge of the law does not bring peace, but condemnation. The law has no power to save.

#Joan’s comment....
Paul writing here refering to his past, as well as our past, as we were in the fleshly passions of sin. There was a time of our life as corrupt propensities or carnal inclinations motivated our outlook and reflected in our decisions we carried out. The holy law around me did not create the evil I did against the law. All the evil I was doing was fruit of the dominion of death I live in.

#Joan’s question 1...
Is it an oxymoron to say 'so and so' is a carnal christian ? Paul spoke about carnal christians to the Corinth church.

(will post the next part tomorrow)

+++
Joan


Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2001, 09:00:00 AM »
Romans 7:6 "But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter."

*Now, after we receive Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are delivered from the bondage of the law, delivered from the condemnation of the law; that, now having the law of love written upon our hearts we follow the spirit of the law, not just the letter while disobeying it's Spirit.
   
*On judgment day none will be condemned because the innocently believed a lie or unknowingly cherished error, but because they did not avail themselves of the opportunity to know truth. It is not a matter of eternal life, for that requires the new birth. It is the torture of known guilt that eats away at the soul. This is more painful to those that have the law and break it than to those who have not known the law and break it.Willful ignorance is known to be such and with it comes the guilt.

The Great Controversy -PG- 313
“At the time of Christ's first advent the priests and scribes of the Holy City, to whom were entrusted the oracles of God, might have discerned the signs of the times and proclaimed the coming of the Promised One. Their ignorance was the result of sinful neglect.”

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald -DT- 04-25-93 - Accountability for Light -PR- 10
“It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that if the whole congregation sin through ignorance, the priests shall make an atonement for the sins when they are made apparent, and the sin of ignorance shall be forgiven. The work of Jesus is to forgive the sins of the past, but if light comes from heaven to the church, and men refuse the light because its acceptance involves a cross, then they stand guilty before God; for they have made it manifest that they love the world more than they love Christ and the truth.”

*Those who have an opportunity to hear the truth, and yet take no pains to hear or understand it, thinking that if they do not hear, they will not be accountable, will be judged guilty before God the same as if they had heard and rejected. There will be no excuse for those who choose to go in error when they might understand what is truth. In his sufferings and death Jesus has made atonement for all sins of ignorance, but there is no provision made for wilful blindness. Those who have hid their eyes from the truth lest they should be convinced, must exercise repentance toward God for the transgression of his law, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ, that their sins of ignorance in the transgression of the Sabbath may be forgiven."
 
Joan's comment :
Rom 7:6.  The consequences of the gospel is implied here as giving the effects of fulfilling the law with a new spirit instead of living to the outward fulfilling of the letter of the law. The law produces distress when I or anyone else experiences it as a mirror of our stand before God. The gospel produces peace when it is appropriated to our hearts. We are freed from the duty of keeping it in a form of self-justification deeds. It means that we Christians are freed from paying ourselves the condemnation requirement of the law but we're not freed from it as a rule of duty.

Though alive physically I was spiritually dead in the eyes of Christ before His Spirit led me to conversion.I serve God now in a newness of spirit of willing love.

Before it was a matter of doing externals as a 'must'. The gospel now working out in me is that of the spirit and the heart, rather than before that of form and ceremony. Such 'law keeping' did not give me the efficacy and power for renewing my heart. Let alone cleansing me of any guilt before God. I before rested in the form of religion, hoping in vain it might produce some heavenly effects,  but my spirit denied the power in it. Now my love for God motivates me to fulfill the laws requirement as He by His grace equipts me to accomplish such.  

^^^^
Joan
^^^^
(more to come)


Wendy

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »
Joan~

quote
-----------------------------------------
*In context of these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.
------------------------------------------

That has to be one of the best short explanations of these texts I've seen.  :)

quote
------------------------------------------
#Joan’s question 1...
Is it an oxymoron to say 'so and so' is a carnal christian ? Paul spoke about carnal christians to the Corinth church.
------------------------------------------

I think in the truest sense of the word Christian, it probably is an oxymoron. But since the world uses the term 'Christian' to describe a group of people who profess to believe certain things, I think you could use that term.  :)

------------------
Maranatha!:)

WendyL ~ Maranatha!:)

Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2001, 04:53:00 PM »
Amen, dear sisters, amen.  :)

The church was given that we might come into unity of doctrine. It is working!  :)

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2001, 11:16:00 PM »
Whew !!
Richard seems happy...
Wendy seems happy...
Whew !

You all don't know how worried I get when approaching a posting where I have to explain my theological view and it comes out looking ever so theosophical. Knowing that you all are knowing that I haven't had a twig of SDA education from the proper channels, it is a bit of tension to share how I see the kingdom guidelines and laws what with my lack of having read hardly any SOP at all. But knowing my heart has been formed by the Spirit of God over the years of bible reading it shouldn't cause me to be too far off beam. Just please bear with me in the odd sentence structure. My mind is so locked into German semantic that forming an American thought process, with proper word sequence, in an American sounding sentence is a great struggle for me.

~~~
Joan
~~~


Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2001, 11:35:00 PM »
quote :
*In context of these verses and clearly understand that Paul was expressing the victory one obtains when filled with the Holy Spirit and the torment one feels when conviction of the law comes home to the heart, by the Holy Spirit, but no surrender of the will is made.

Yes, Wendy, I do agree with you that as Richard put this words together he had the gist of the two chapters in a nutshell.

Joan


Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2001, 11:54:00 AM »

Romans 7:7
"What shall we say then? is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

*Shall we say the law is wrong? God forbid!! I would not have known I was sinning and lost and condemned if it was not for the law: I would not have known I was lusting if I did not know the law that says, thou shalt not covet.

Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men (mankind) everywhere to repent."

*This is an amazing quotation, for "perhaps at one time, ignorance was an excuse" Not any more! In fact, if opportunity presents itself, and people do not take advantage of the opportunity, they are held responsible. They will be guilty.

Joan's comment :
In effect, the evil done is in man and not to be found in the Law which is inherently good and pure. It came to show me how sin is already in me at work and made me conscious of my wrong doings as beings deeds I will have to account to God for.

The fault of my inclinations to sin, or excitement at wanting to sin, lies not in the foundation of the law but in my own soul members. The desires to sin lay with me but the knowledge that those desires are wrong and forbidden by God could only the law teach me. The Spirit of God moves upon us in leading us to look at, or in, the law of God like as into a mirror to see our wrongness and then the conscience tell us of our wrongness.

If I keep on ignoring those moments of the H.Spirit convicting me, I will sear my conscience over a time that possibly causes the working of the H.Spirit to stop convicting me forever. I have then sinned against the H.Spirit.

 
~~~
Joan
~~~


Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
Amen. The law reveals God's character and our condemnation. The Holy Spirit is needed to open our minds to these truths.  Jesus calls to us. "Come unto Me all ye that labour and I will give you rest. "As we learn of Jesus and His great love, we allow our hearts to go out fully to Him in sorrow for our sins and what they have done to Him and others. We see ourselves as we really are, naked, blind, and in great need of a Saviour. It is a gift, repentance. A gift that cost an infinite price.

It is a wonderful fact that Jesus can change us from the inside out. He will give us new hearts that will obey all that we know to do. Obedience is the outworking of the Spirit within. All who refuse to obey, cannot obey, for in and of ourselves we have no power to do good. We must allow Jesus control of our lives. Such a sad thing to realize that so many misunderstand and believe a profession of faith is enough. It has never been and never will be. We must make a full surrender to Jesus, then we will be filled with love to God and love to man.  :)  Jesus has promised us this experience. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Let us obtain this precious gift today! 
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2001, 11:06:00 AM »
7:8 "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead."
RSV Romans 7:8  "But sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, wrought in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law sin lies dead".
   
*Sin (transgression of the law), now that the law is known, revealed all manner of evil in me. Before I knew the law, I did not know sin.

Joan's comment :
It is still not certain to me if sin is an entity apart from human existance or a word personifying the condition of human mind's corrupt passions, or inclinations, against the law of God. I figure that the soul under legal restraints of being constantly convicted by the purity of the Laws demands, gets to building up steam over the course of time. It might burst out in real-time rebellion in a furious way by doing really bad actions and using the tongue really wrongly. There are lots of legally raised SDA's around showing rebellion, resistance and downright ornery obstinancy.

Joan's Questions :

-Could it be true that lust in me or you is not any type of independent physical subsistence ?

-Could it be that if I am being 'burnt' up with raging ambition that the corrupt ambition is not a separate entity to me as my ego but that my mind is the source of ambition, or envy or dirty lust ?

-Could it be that the demons don't put 'sin' in me but that they play with my propensities and I decide to 'sin' according to the mindset I have ?

-Could it be that 'sin' is just the 'fruit' or result of acting out my wrong mindset? Or heart condition?

-Could it be that the 'temptation' (in itself not a sin of itself), is just the catalysis to excite the- dormant-lying-potential to bring forth sin which harbors in the heart and mind of me ?

-Could it be the best in teaching is to tell others to avoid 'temptation'?

-Could it be that the law of God is there for us as an restraint in a positive way to avoid temptation?

-Now, is the Law a 'detector' that reveals the condition of my innermost being or a restraint-help that cautions me not to indulge in a certain behavor ?

~~~
Joan
~~~

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 02-19-2001).]


Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2001, 08:32:00 PM »
Sister Joan asks: "Now, is the Law a 'dector' that reveals the condition of my innermost   being or a restraint-help that cautions me not to indulge in a certain behavor?"

The law is the school-master that leads us to Jesus. The law is what condemns us. Jesus is who saves us. The law has no power to save. It is the standard that shows that we are indeed in need of help. So, I say that the important aspect in our discussion in Romans 7 and 8 is part A to your question.  :)

Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2001, 06:23:00 AM »

   
7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."
     
*I did not know I was under condemnation (death sentence) without a knowledge of the depth of the law: but when I found out about the depth of the law, that it reaches to the intents of the heart, then I became guilty and saw myself spiritually dead (the law slayed me).
     
Joan's comment :
This verse is one of those enigmatical oddities coming out of Paul that makes reading his letters ever so challenging.

It's quite similar to those Russian Babushka's woodcrafted pieces, with the colorful lack-painted scarf covered grandmother, where you open the head and pull out the same wooden figure in a fraction of a millimeter smaller. You open the head of that and out comes the replica in still a fraction of a millimeter smaller. You do it again, and again and again until the table is full with about nine of them. The last has the figure of a small baby in it.

Paul has this technique in presenting God's truths, IMO. One thinks by looking at first glance that one readily understands what the issue is, but it's is more important to take the time to peel back and get down to the core of the substance.

This sentence is not based on the greek-based logic of today's way of thinking. Paul was here using his ancestral jewish mindset of syllogism. I am going to risk saying that he was visualizing his state before conversion. His sense of being 'alive' may have to do with the haughty sense of strength sucessful persons feel when being a 'self-made man' and having a self-righteous outlook on life. Such people have a kind of peace that gives them security. It of course self-delusionary. There is no conviction of having done anything wrong. The so-called socially acceptable good works in this person's life has built up his self-esteem.

Paul was one of these self-confident sinners. Externally conformed rightly to society and without having applied the law of Moses with it's power to his personal set of values. Paul was saying, in retrospect, he was outside the law because he subscribed to his own self-made law of behavior and ethics. Then the moment came as the commandments of God came to him in spiritual convicting ways. The Spirit of the law touched him. His proud, impetuos ways were constrained with the convicting work of the Holy Spirit.

This expression "..and sin revived" is a hard expression for me to identify with. The opposite would mean sin laid dormant in Paul. That I can't figure with. I take it that the Apostle's recognition or apprehension of the enormity of sin in his life became alive.

Joan's questions :
Then comes that mysterious portion of Paul's text saying "..and I died." Could this mean that he saw himself at that moment as a spiritual dead man walking? Could it mean he caught the sight of deserving eternal death ? Could it mean that all his efforts of obtaining eternal life by obedience to the law of good deeds and correctly adhering to the counsels of the law in actions, did not at all justify him before God as he had hoped ? Yes, I think so.

~~~
Joan
~~~


Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #34 on: February 22, 2001, 12:52:00 AM »

7:10 "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
RSV   Romans 7:10  the very commandment which promised life proved to be death to me.
 
*And the commandments which are Holy and just, and given for our good, I found to cause my spiritual death (under the condemnation of the broken law. Poor Saul, he is really confused. He was brought under condemnation by the law of God and knows not how to get out from under the death sentence. He, like most other Pharisees, prided themselves in keeping the law, so it was quite a shock to him to find himself a law breaker. The Holy Spirit began to convince him of his sins after he participated in the stoning of Stephen.

Joan's comments
Yes, indeed it must have given Paul a great blow to stagger him as he realized in shock that he himself was a lawbreaker as you mentioned above. Similar to the experience of discovering one's chosen beloved, of whom one is convinced is the right one for receiving a lifetime of bliss and enouragement, turns out to be the source of producing the most awful fights and ugly disappointments after the marriage starts.

Life should be made of peace and happiness. The law was intended to produce this. Leviticus states a few time that if we keep the law then none of the deseases will touch us and implies that  the law is good in a 'protecting us from evil' sense.

When pride, lust for autonomous rule, obstinate self-will and stubborness in resisting right teaching causes one to rebel against the requirements of the law, sin and crime result. This is the inherent propensities within us. The law does not allow or give room for such character tendencies. Such is the case in persons when guilt and condemnation occurs. It reflects back on the law as being the source of death for that one. It shows the right reason why death is the wages for sin.

Adam lost his immortal life because of disobedience to the law. We, the progeny, are under the curse of death as soon as we are born. No one has the ability to fulfill the requirement of keep the law in perfection when he has not received the free gift of God of a new created heart. When that miracle takes place the power is given to live in perfect obedience like Jesus did.

Before the proper new creature in Christ conversion takes place, unconsciously we find ourselves in the condition of death which brings forth fruits of sinning. The condition gave us no direction to show the way of obtaining sinfree living along with living eternally. Looking into the law of life I see now only condemnation because of not measuring up to the standard. There is no overlooking, and there is no excuse for how I am before I get the new heart of love to God from the Holy Spirit.

~~~
Joan
~~~


Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #35 on: February 22, 2001, 04:34:00 AM »
Amen, Sister Joan. This is what is being taught throughout the Bible, but most especially here in Romans 7.  Now, when we read 7:24 it makes perfectly good sense. "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Saul had no idea WHO could help him. He thought there was only one God, the Father. Jesus was an imposter. So, the Lamb of God could not take away his sins.

As we read the rest of the writings of Paul we don't get this attitude at all. He tells us quite pointedly who will take our sins away. We can do all things through Christ Jesus!  :)  Saul met Jesus and found a Saviour that delivered him from sin. He became a "new creature" in Christ Jesus! This we may do also, each day!  :) By beholding Jesus, we shall become like Him. By learning of His righteousness, we may become partakers of His nature, of His character. "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance." A thoughtful hour a day contemplating the life of Christ especially the closing scenes will be a source of life saving grace to our souls. Let us behold our God!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2001, 07:55:00 AM »

7:11 "For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me."

RSV Romans 7:11  "For sin, finding opportunity in the commandment, deceived me and by it killed me."
   
*For breaking the commandments that I then had knowledge of, I came under condemnation. I knew I was walking after the flesh.

Joan's comment :
Looking at this verse crossed-eyed one could almost come to the heresy of saying that the law of God seduces me to sin. Yikers !  What a horrible thought. I do believe that an passive reflective thought is used here and not a active cause and result. The main actor in this sentence is 'sin'.

In word analysis of Strong's I see that 'sin' is :  to be without a share in; to miss the mark; to err, be mistaken; to miss or wander from the path of uprightness nad honour; to do or go wrong; to wander from the law of God; to violate God's law; and an offence against the divine law in thought or in act. If sin is then that which is 'against the law of God' then it is an absolute impossibility for the law to produce sin or be a co-worker with it.

The rebellious propensities that are already in the human heart is excited when seeing the forbidden. Now, don't we kids know that  :)  These stimulated, highlighted tendencies lead astray by deceiving one, or urging one, to do the bad act. Sinning has to do with one's passions mixed with delusions. The delusion comes when the thoughts entertain an implied pleasure behind the forbidden verbot expression of the law. The evil imaginations of the person lets himself get enticed or seduced by his own thoughts and passions. The law is good, just and righteous. It does not wound but sin deceives us and thus we are slain. The law is not the cause of sin or of death. It verifies what is already there. Sin is personified as the tempter here in this verse.

~~~
Joan
~~~  



Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2001, 08:20:00 AM »
   
7:12 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good."
     
*I see the law is good.

Joan's comment :
There is nothing more I can add to this. The wording in the verse is self-explanatory.
   
7:13 "Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."
     
*Was the good law causing me to die? God forbid!!! The commandments showed me I was under condemnation and then I could see the great evil of breaking the commandments.

Joan's comments .
This verse 13 is the substance or justification of my words for verse 11 comments. I couldn't say anything new to what I fully agree already in Richard's above wording.

~~~
Joan
~~~

[This message has been edited by Joan Rügemer (edited 02-24-2001).]


Joan Rügemer

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2001, 09:38:00 AM »

7:14 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin."
     
*We know the Ten Commandments are of God, but I am unholy, and cannot help but sin. I am a slave to sin and cannot help myself. I cannot stop sinning. I have no good fruit in my life. I manifest the works of the flesh for I am carnal, of the flesh.

Joan's comments :
Paul used the past tense form of telling in verse 7 but in this verse he is using the present tense of the infinative 'to be' here which is 'I am'. Verses 7-13 show the effects of the law on the mind of an degenerate/unregenerate man. The verses 14 and onward show the effects of the man after conversion but not filled with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The man is renewed in his state of mind, cleansed and made at peace with God but hasn't grasped what it means to live the Spirit led life. He is deciding for himself to fulfill the law of God in the efforts of his own flesh. So is how I see these verses.

The operating system of God's law is a supernatural non-carnal predominance. It moves from the impulse of the character of God which is good, just, love, light without darkness. In contrast to the law's operating system, 'my' system is carnal...that means my impulses are fleshly, sensuous, heeding passions of the body, going after the appetites of the body, worldly in orientation and secular in philosophy. Who I am is dictated by earthly longings to get fulfilled with material substances. It is not naturally given to understand ethereal or spiritual happenings in a viewpoint as God sees them. Carnal cravings or wishes drive me to seek sensual satisfaction. The appetite of my senses drive me to make provision before the wish to honor God's law.

Joan's questions :
As I was among the 'other sheep' as member of other denominations, the controversy raged whether this verse and the following were written to show Paul's state before his commitment to Jesus or if he was struggling in the carnal problem as he was serving the Lord.

Are these verses part of men and women under the gospel or in the gospel life but not having constant victory over the carnal nature like it appears in young christians to be the case, or is Paul stating a condition of his soul life before he was baptised with he power of the Holy Spirit with the gifts he became for evangelism ?

Santification is not a one day experience. We grow into the habit of acting like Christ. We fall into old ways but quickly stand up and go on again. I see as of yet no indication in these verses that Paul lost his struggle with his carnal nature after becoming an Evangelist.  Keeping of the law does not sanctify a person. The Lord God santifies the person to keep the law is my conviction. The state of santification is a schooling.

A baptised born-again new-creature-in-Christ genuine Christian goes through the state of conflict that Paul is discribing here. I know of instant forgiveness from Jesus and instant cleansing and instant imputing Christ's righteousness to a real believer but I know of no instant character perfection where the adult has never fallen by Satan' temptation since his conversion. They have prayed for forgiveness and got up to walk the walk on the narrow road again. But if you know one who is free from faults, making mistakes, making wrong judgements, free from falling to any temption and is under 50 years of age, would you please write me an email and give me the guy's name ?

Habits or propensities travel with us when we forsake Babylon to live the Christian life in the kingdom of God. Our period of santification is there to help us get rid of the sin habits. Now we are sealed with the Spirit and when we are filled with the Spirit we overcome in the Spirit. The bent of our minds after conversion is to love and serve God but the prevailing strength of the sin habit is like being like as a slave to sin. The difference now we are free from the yoke but must use another operating system to be overcomers. That's why Paul speaks of himself being sold under sin as the present state he was in as a Apostle in this verse. Paul had been made free by Christ but the effects of his past sinnings is acting still as an condition reflex repeat even though he was actually legally free in the eyes of God from the clutches of the Devil. Jesus had paid the price for him already.

~~~
Joan
~~~


Richard Myers

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Re: Romans 7 and 8
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2001, 08:12:00 PM »
Sister Joan, nowhere in the writings of Paul will you find him saying he is carnal. He says the opposite. This verse cannot be taken out of context. We must read it with the verses that preceed it and follow it. He is describing his experience when he found himself dead in treaspasses and sins. He did not know that Jesus Christ was the Messiah when in this carnal state.

This does not mean that he never fell after being converted. We do not believe in once saved always saved, so this is not an issue. Here Paul is speaking of what Saul went through when he was a Pharisee of Pharisees and found out he was under condemnation.

If this is not the case, then can you point to a testimony of Saul's conversion someplace else in the Bible?   :)  Not the simple explanation of his experience on the road to Damascuss, but an explanation of the process.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.