Romans 7 and 8

[Richard Myers]

Amen!

So we see that the process of conversion involves a knowledge of the law. God is showing us our sins and our inability to be "good" without help from outside of ourselves. Like the Israelites at Mt. Sinai. They said they would obey, but they did not know Jesus Christ. They needed a Saviour. Only those who see they are sick will seek a physician. We must see our need before we seek a Saviour.

Coming to Christ is not easy. We make it difficult because of our very nature, but with a knowledge of Jesus we will prevail!

[DHThiele]

Brother Richard,

quote:Paul explains to us that this is the function of the law to the unconverted.

Isn't it fascinating that the function of the Law is to condemn or acquit? That is why Romans 8:13 is so important to the discussion. If we live according to the flesh, that is a life of disobedience, we will die, but if through the power of the Holy Spirit we put to death disobedience done in our flesh through a obedient faith in Christ, we will surely live.

[Richard Myers]

Amen, Brother Thiele!  It is very interesting that the law is able to both condemn and acquit. For those who do not see this easily read through The Investigative Judgment topic and you will see that the law is the standard that will forever condemn or forever acquit those who claim to be believers.

This does not mean that the law can save, for only the blood of Christ has power to save. But, after having accepted this power into our lives it is the law that reveals the standard by which all will be measured. Not just the outward deeds, but the inward motives and thoughts. This is discussed in the IJ topic. It is interesting to note that the law is a transcript of the character of our God.

In this topic we see the language being used is "flesh" denoting transgression of the law and "Spirit" denoting obedience to the law.

[Richard Myers]

Why is Romans 7 so important to understand correctly? Because the father of lies has perverted the truth. In the church is a teaching on Romans 7 that makes the truth of no effect. It is one of the most dangerous teachings because of its success.

Here is the false interpretation: It is taught that Romans 7 is the life of Paul after his conversion. Therefore we all have the same experience after conversion. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This verse is made an exuse for sin when there is no excuse for sin. Most in the professing Christian churches believe this lie. Therefore they believe they have eternal life when they remain dead in their sins.

A careful reading of chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit will give the Christian a correct understanding of these important verses. May God bless all who want to the know the truth that it may set them free from the power of sin.

[This message has been edited by Richard Myers (edited 08-16-2004).]

[Ele Holmes]

Amen and Amen

Richard, How true....even on 3ABN I hear many evangelists preach:  "There is nothing you can do or not do that can save you, you do nothing....Christ has done it all."  I heard it again last night. Go on and live your life the way  you want, is  the impression I get.

Preparing for heaven is not an easy job especially fighting Satan constantly.

Yes, Jesus did it all, We have confessed, repented, and are now converted, "We are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." We are forgiven only "for the remission of sins that are past..."   AND NOW,  we must not sin to keep this converted soul full of Christ in us. "The wages of sin is death."
   

[Richard Myers]

Yes, it is very simple Dear Sister Ele. It is sad that such a simple teaching has become perverted.

[Cop]

Quote:
“Here is the false interpretation: It is taught that Romans 7 is the life of Paul after his conversion.”
--------------------------------------------

[While I have not read all posts in this thread and may be repeating something said before, here is my 2 cents worth.]

EGW  here speaks of Paul in Romans 7 as being a converted, born again Christian and uses it as an example to the unconverted. As she says here, only the man who has surrendered to Christ will, “delight in the law of God”.

“I beseech you to make an unreserved surrender to God, and to make it now, just now. When you make this surrender you will have an experience entirely different from the experience that you have had for many years. Then you will be able to say with the apostle Paul, "I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ" (Eph. 3:. "I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Romans 7:22).” {11MR 312.3}
--------------------------------------------

In this statement, she speaks of the spiritual growth of the converted soul. She again uses Paul and his confession of Romans 7 as another example of what a truly converted Christian is to be.

“The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14.” {AA 561}
--------------------------------------------

In this quote, she says that Christians “are carnal”.

“But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14.  But though we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}

Quote:
“Therefore we all have the same experience after conversion. "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." This verse is made an exuse for sin when there is no excuse for sin. Most in the professing Christian churches believe this lie. Therefore they believe they have eternal life when they remain dead in their sins.”

I am confused, Brother Richard. I have always taken Romans 7 to be Paul speaking of the spiritual struggle that takes place within a converted Christian. I can not see an unconverted person having this struggle because they ignore all things spiritual.

It definitely speaks of the experience that I have had in my spiritual growth as I have battled and struggled with self. Do I believe you can continue in sin and be a Christian? I think that you know I do not in any way, “believe they have eternal life when they remain dead in their sins.”. I think my posts make that perfectly clear! I believe we must put away ALL sin if we are to enter God’s Presence. More and more I am learning to surrender to Christ. More and more I am seeing His victories in my life as He is destroying the attributes of self within me. I can not do it, but He IS doing it!

My understanding of Romans 7 is that Paul is telling us that there is not instant perfection upon conversion, that there will be a war, a battle, with self as we look at, desire and began to receive the character of Christ.

God Bless

------------------
"Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me. That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave"
Gen. Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson

[Richard Myers]

Brother Cop, your posts are very clear in regards to the sinfulness of sin. You do not make excuses for it. I think this is a very good foundation for us to begin on.

There is no excuse for sin. But, Satan has stolen a march upon us and has tried to convince many that there is. Any sin reveals a separation between us and Christ. It is a blessing to understand this. We need to qualify this just a bit. We are talking about "known sin". To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not to him it is sin. And, yes those who are willfully ignorant, they are guilty also.

When we accept the fact that sin (known sin) reveals a separation between us and Christ we then will see Scripture in a different light. Romans seven is contrasted with Romans eight. In eight we are given a view of the Christian's life. In Romans seven we see the struggle to surrender. One of the reasons for the confusion is that so many are not converted and have never been born again. They view themselves as converted when they are still in the struggle to die. It is a long protracted process of wooing by the Holy Spirit.

This does not mean that after conversion there are not battles to fight and victories to win. As long as life shall last we will ever have self to subdue. But, in Christ self is subdued. In Romans seven self is alive and acting out sin. Romans eight reveals a different man.

[Cop]

Brother Richard, you state: "In Romans seven we see the struggle to surrender." I do not see it as being the unregenerate man being spoken of in chapter 7. As in the quotes above from the SOP in which she refers to Paul, I see Paul speaking of his battle with self after his acceptance of Christ and being born again.

“For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do, I understand not. For what I would, that do I not. But what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me. But how to perform that which is good, I find not. For the good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law that when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.” Romans 7: 14-25.

That is a description of someone in conflict with himself, someone who loves God's moral law, someone who deep down in his inner most self wants to obey God's moral law, but is pulled and pushed away from its fulfillment by sin, sin that is in him. It is the personal experience of a soul in conflict. It is a battle. It is a warfare that rages in the heart. The conflict is very real, it is very intense, it is very strong. Of that there is no mistake. In verse 24, he cries out, "O wretched man that I am." There is a wretchedness about this battle. There is a wretchedness about this conflict. And then the cry, "Who shall deliver me?" And then the declaration, "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." But even knowing that, it concludes, "So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Some people say this is a Christian being described. And some people say this is a non-Christian or unregenerate person. One side says there is too much bondage to sin for a Christian. The other says there's too much desire for good for a non-Christian. You can't be a Christian and be bound to sin and you can't be a non-Christian and desire to keep the law of God. And therein is the conflict of interpreting the passage.

Those who view this as a non-Christian say verse 14 is the key: "I am carnal, sold under sin." And so, they would say that has to be an unbeliever. And then verse 18, "For I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing, for to will is present with me but how to perform that which is good I find not." And they say that has to be a non-Christian because a person who's a Christian knows how to do what's good. Where's the evidence of the Holy Spirit's power there? And so they question the very obvious ignorance of the person in verse 18 not able to figure out how to get his results that he wants. Should one in Christ be so impotent?

And then verse 24, "O wretched man that I am," seems rather far from the promise of chapter 5 verse 1, "Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through Jesus Christ, our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, rejoice in hope of the glory of God." And then he goes on to talk about the fact that we not only have the hope and the joy but all the benefits, how can this man be so wretched with so many benefits? How can he be carnal, sold under sin when chapter 6 verse 14 says sin shall not have dominion over you?

And then they will usually go into chapter 6 in detail. For example, chapter 6 verse 2, "How shall we that are dead, or have died, to sin live any longer in it?" Verse 6, "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Verse 7, "For he that has died is freed from sin." Verse 11, "Reckon yourselves to have died indeed unto sin." Verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body." Verse 17, "God be thanked that whereas you were the servants of sin, you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." Verse 18, "Being then made free from sin..." Verse 22, "But now being made free from sin and become servants to God."

Now with all of that in chapter 6, how in the world can it be said in verse 14 of chapter 7, "I am carnal, sold under sin," is a Christian? But as quoted before from EGW, she states the born again Christian is carnal: “But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin." Romans 7:13-14. But though we are carnal, we are to reckon ourselves "dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” {ST, October 1, 1894}.

The emphasis in chapter 6 is on the new creation, the new nature, the new identity, the new person in Christ, the redeemed man. The emphasis therefore is on the holiness of the believer. And in his new creation and in his redeemed self, he has broken sin's dominion. The emphasis in chapter 7 does not necessarily have to be the same as in chapter 6. And every Christian knows that even though he is new in Christ and sin's dominion is broken and sin no longer has mastery over him, sin is still a problem. And so whether or not you want to see a Christian in chapter 7, you've still got to see a Christian having conflict with sin even though his new creation, his new self is holy.

Its important to understand what is taught in chapter 6, that that which is recreated is the new man. And that new redeemed self is holy. But there's still going to be a conflict. And whether you see that conflict in chapter 7 or not, there is still a conflict and it is pointed out even in chapter 6. Notice chapter 6 verse 12, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts."

I agree with you completely that many use chapter 7 as an excuse that they can continue to sin, that Christ will 'change' them on His Return without their having to struggle and renounce their favorite sins. I have much contact and discussions with Christians of other faiths, but I have had very few ever refer to Chapter 7 as giving them an excuse to continue sinning.

What is strange to me though, is the large number of SDA's that I have heard use this chapter in that way. Just this past Sabbath, in SS, the teacher and several 'church leaders' discussed sin and quoted Romans 7. They all expressed their love for a loving Jesus who loves all sinners and  would remove their desire to sin when He Returns. [It was stated that those who believed sin must be renouced and put out of a Christian's life before His Return in order to be ready to stand before God, were "fanatics".] Could it be that even though some SDA's still believe He is soon to return, others are just trying to ignore it and love sin more than they love Him?

God Bless

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 03-06-2005).]

[Cop]

Do we have a contradiction of God's Word to us? In verse 6, we are told the body of sin was destroyed and we would henceforth not serve sin, now why in verse 12 is Paul commanding us not to let it reign? We have the same problem in chapter 6 as in chapter 7. We still have to deal with the problem of the believer and sin. And in all that Paul said in chapter 6 about our new nature, and our new creation, and our new essence, he never said that from then on we wouldn't have a battle with sin. Verse 12 implies that sin could still have a reigning place, it COULD still be shouting out orders which we are submitting to. We COULD still be obeying sin. Verse 13 says, "Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin," which is to say you COULD do that. And so we have to be commanded not to do that.

The problem in chapter 7 is the same problem in chapter 6 because we have all of these statements about you've died to sin, you're dead to sin, sin has no dominion over you, your service to sin is broken, you are now servants of God and you're free from sin, you're free from sin. At the same time you have the commands to not let sin reign over you. So there are no problems found in the interpretation of chapter 7 that aren't also found in the interpretation of chapter 6.

Chapter 6:19…"I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh." When you sin, it isn't the new you…what is it? It's your flesh, your humanness. And so he says I have to remind you of these things because your flesh is still there, for as you have yielded your members to uncleanness and iniquity unto iniquity in the past, even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. And the implication again is there is...again there is you could yield your members to sin. You could yield your members to sin. Arguing that chapter 7 cannot refer to a Christian because of statements in chapter 6 is to really to misunderstand the intention of chapter 6. And I think it to be a rather weak argument.

[Bill Wennell]

In regard to verse 6 and the body of sin being "destroyed", this is a mistranslation in the KJV. The correct rendering, as evidenced in newer translations, of the Greek is "rendered inoperative." It is still there and capable of regaining it's reign if we so choose.

------------------
Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com

[Richard Myers]

Brother Cop, my understanding of conversion is that it is a moment by moment experience. When Moses struck the Rock he needed to be reconverted. We do not believe in once saved always saved. Therefore, we in Christ do not do what we ought not to do. If we sin it is because we have let go of Jesus. If we believe this, then we see a marked difference between Romans chapter seven and Romans chapter eight. Can you see the reasoning?

[Richard Myers]

As to the battle with sin, we must always keep in mind that we do not yet have glorified bodies. The flesh is always fallen until Christ returns. But, this does not in any way mean that the Christian will yield to sin. The flesh is kept under submission to the mind that is in submission to Christ. When the mind is not yielded to Christ, then the flesh will rule. It is a law. Only Christ can give us the victory over our flesh. We are sinful, but we may continually gain the victory "if" we will abide in Christ.

Yes, there will always be temptations, but this does not mean that we will yield to them. In Christ we shall do that which we (our minds) want to do. Romans seven says we will do that which we do not want to do and we won't do that which we ought to do. This is not the life of a Christian abiding in Christ. But, it is the life of those who want to gain the victory, but do not make a full surrender. Like Judas who saw his failure, many want to change, but do not because they do not come to Jesus. They abhor their condition, but not enough to give it to Christ. It is very sad to see such suffering.

It is also sad to realize that many live a life of deception. They do not realize the victory that awaits them when they make a full surrender to Jesus. They have believed a lie and either want the things of this world more than Jesus or they do not understand the necessity of making a full and complete surrender. Too many hold onto the things of this world and thus they have no power to overcome the flesh. Only Jesus enthroned within can give us the victory over self.

Romans eight expresses this very clearly. It is the answer to the very sad condition seen in Romans seven. Paul had no idea of who it was that could help him in his helpless condition. He saw himself a slave to sin with no hope. He did not know Jesus as a Saviour, yet he did understand that he was under a death sentence because of the broken law. It was a new thought to him at this point, because he had been thinking he was great. He was a Pharisee of a Pharisee. he was high and lifted up and serving the God of heaven. He was alive without the law. Then the commandment came and he saw the reality of the law. He saw himself condemned and had no place to go. He thought Jesus and impostor and since he had no Saviour, he had no hope. The God of heaven was not giving him the victory. But, the God of heaven was listening to his prayer. "O wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death."

It is when we come to this point that God can help us. It was then that Saul was ready to see Jesus, and see Him he did.

Many today need to come the that very point in their life where they see themselves undone. They must want to obtain the victory.  They must see their condition as Saul did. They must see they are condemned. Then as they turn to God asking for help they will see Jesus. They will be given a view of Christ that will burn within their hearts and they will love Jesus enough to turn from their sin. But, they must continue along that same path. They must feed upon Christ daily, moment by moment or they will fall.

Only those who are filled with the Spirit will be able to keep the law of God. When the Spirit is not within, then the flesh will rule. But when the Spirit is within, we walk in the light as He is in the light. Romans 8:1 in the King James Version tells us the truth that is so important. If you read it in the NIV you will miss the truth. But, if one keeps reading the next 14 verses even in the NIV the truth is impossible to miss if one really wants to know it

[Cop]

Brother Bill, I agree with you completely and thank you for pointing this out. I sometimes forget that what I may understand (the meaning of destroyed) and believe to be well known to others, may not be true. ‘Destroyed’ in this case, does not mean to cease to exist. I have most of the ‘newer translations’, but after reading the introductions in them (most do not even claim to be a correct and true translation, but say they are interpreting the thoughts of the author…God), and that they are all based on the Roman Church’s ancient manuscripts that were known and proclaimed in the fourth century to be inaccurate, I rarely use them.

The word translated ‘destroyed’ in Romans 6:6 is translated the same in four other verses, i.e. 2 Thessalonians 2:8, “…and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”. We know he will live again during the Second Resurrection and Hebrews 2:14, “…that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;”. We all know Satan is did not cease to exist at the death of Christ, but his power was forever destroyed. This Greek word, ‘katargeo’ means to make of none effect and is translated in other verses of the KJV as: abolish, bring to nought, deliver, do away, loose, make void, put away, put down, cease and so on. In Young's Literal Translation, we read: “this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;”. In Berry’s Interlinear Greek-English N.T. we read: “this knowing, that old our man was crucified with (him), that might be annulled the body of sin, that no longer be subservient we to sin”.

In verse 6, ‘the old man’- our corrupt propensities, passions, lusts, are no longer the great power in control of our life. The ‘old man’ has been expelled and put out of the life. ‘The body of sin’ is the body used by the evil power of sin, which has enslaved the entire being, and so, it works itself out through the body and its members.

Certainly Paul is not teaching that sin is dead in the believer. The fact that he goes on to discuss what the attitude and stand of the Christian should be towards sin indicates this. If sin were utterly dead, and ‘destroyed’ as we understand the word, there would be no further need for Paul to concern himself with the subject. The Christian experience and the whole of Bible teaching testify to the contrary. He is no longer the slave to sin, as is suggested by the Greek here translated in verse 6 as, “not serve”; he is dead TO sin, but sin is not dead IN him. Sin does not reign, but it remains.

God Bless…

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 06-09-2005).]

[Cop]

Brother Richard, I thank you for your comments on this subject. If I were to choose what I consider my favorite Book of Scripture, it would be Romans. I love to discuss it. I love to study it and to have my mind enlightened by the Holy Spirit as He removes the veil of darkness from my eyes.

I do not do not believe in once saved always saved and hope I have not given that impression! You state, “my understanding of conversion is that it is a moment by moment experience.” I am not sure upon what you base this. But from Scripture I do believe that we can be sure of our Salvation and should not doubt. In Romans 4 we read:

“13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed;
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

We can be sure of Salvation and not ‘believe once saved, always safe’ which is a lie of Satan. “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied,” of John the Baptist in Luke 1:77, that John was: “To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,”.

I do not see that ‘when Moses struck the Rock he needed to be reconverted’. Upon what do you base this, my Brother? From my study, I see a man who was converted and surrendered to Christ, but, as we, had to battle the evil human nature. I see a man who was overcome by the nature of the ‘old man’. He was the chosen leader of his people, and thus, was held to a higher standard and responsibility by Christ.

“Moses had spoken from irritated feeling; HIS WORDS WERE AN EXPRESSION OF HUMAN PASSION rather than of holy indignation because God had been dishonored. "Hear now, ye rebels," he said. This accusation was true, but even truth is not to be spoken in passion or impatience. When God had bidden Moses to charge upon Israel their rebellion, the words had been painful to him, and hard for them to bear, yet God had sustained him in delivering the message. But when he took it upon himself to accuse them, he grieved the Spirit of God and wrought only harm to the people. His lack of patience and self-control was evident. Thus the people were given occasion to question whether his past course had been under the direction of God, and to excuse their own sins. Moses, as well as they, had offended God. His course, they said, had from the first been open to criticism and censure. They had now found the pretext which they desired for rejecting all the reproofs that God had sent them through His servant. “{PP 417}

“Had Moses and Aaron been cherishing self-esteem or indulging a passionate spirit in the face of divine warning and reproof, their guilt would have been far greater. But THEY WERE NOT CHARGED WITH WILLFUL OR DELIBERATE SIN; THEY HAD BEEN OVERCOMED BY A SUDDEN TEMPTATION, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment.” {PP 419}

“As he looked back upon his experience as a leader of God's people, one wrong act marred the record. If that transgression could be blotted out, he felt that he would not shrink from death. HE WAS ASSURED THAT REPENTANCE, AND FAITH IN THE PROMISED SACRIFICE, WERE ALL THAT GOD REQUIRED, and again Moses confessed his sin and implored pardon in the name of Jesus. {PP 472}

I am not trying to be argumentative, but, “Therefore, we in Christ do not do what we ought not to do. If we sin it is because we have let go of Jesus.”, sounds as if we are once saved, we are always safe! In other words, it sounds as if a true Christian will never sin. I repeat your question to me, “Can you see the reasoning?”

[I love this kind of discussion and study! Well, gotta go…God Bless!!]

[This message has been edited by Cop (edited 06-09-2005).]

[Richard Myers]

This is a  very important point we are discussing my dear friend. At the heart of the matter is God's attitude towards sin. I know your attitude, but we need to take into consideration God's and what others believe.

There is no excuse for sin. The doctrine of Scripture makes this abudantly clear, but not the present teachings within the churches. There is a way opened for sin. The church teaches that the converted Christian abiding in Christ can sin. But, the Bible says otherwise.

Now, let me stop and point to Moses when he struck the Rock. The correct teaching on conversion or justification is not discouraging, but when understood correctly points to an all forgiving Saviour and our loving heavenly Father who desire to cleanse us from all sin and empower us to not sin.

In the statement you quoted regarding the contrition of Moses we see the requirement for salvation. Moses needed to repent of his sin before he could be justified in the eyes of God. It is not good enough to say that God knows he will repent or that his sin was not pre-meditated. Known sin is sin. Self was alive and this is not the Spirit of Christ. This is where Romans 8:1-14 come into play. If we will consider what they are saying and then look at Romans seven we will better understand the true Christian experience. We need not take anything out of context, but take the whole topic into consideration and then we shall see that one sin separates us from God. Or, a better way to put it is that one sin reveals a separation from God.

But, God does not cease to love us. He comes after us. He sends the Spirit to plead with the fallen sinner. In Moses case his repentance was quick and deep. This sin was a stain on Moses record, but that is not the end of the story. Moses was laid to rest, but because he repented and allowed Christ back into his heart he was raised from the grave and now is in heaven.

We must come to grips with the fact that when we have been converted we are not be able to sin and retain our justification. This is Satan's great victory in deceiving many in the church. They believe they are right in God's eyes when they sin. But, they are not. When Peter fell into the water, he needed to call out to Christ. If he did not, he would have died. We must all come face to face with this certainty. We need Jesus at each step of the way. There is no safety when we step outside of Christ. He is there, it is up to us to retain our justification by remaining connected to our Saviour.

I know that this sounds like heresy to many in "Christian" churches today, but it is the Biblical truth. It glorifies Christ, not man. It gives hope to all who will come to Him and abide in Him. Too many want eternal life without Christ. It is impossible. Our profession of faith means nothing. It is the Spirit indwelling our hearts that brings Christ into the life. Romans 8 explains that without this we do not have eternal life.

[Richard Myers]

This topic has covered a lot of ground and it is necessary to read through it so that we don't have to repeat what has already been posted. If there are points that are not understood, then quote the passage and we will address it.

[Allan F]

Romans 7 is the chapter in the Bible that has most references to the "law", 23 times. The chapter with the second most references to the "law" is chapter 2 in the same epistle.

Interestingly the phrase in ch 8:4, "the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled" is the very same phrase in ch 2:26 (in the greek text) where even the uncircumcised may fullfill the law in the sense of obeying it. Why can not it mean the same in Rom 8:4? Well, of course it does, because in Rom 8:7 Paul says that those who are in the flesh cannot keep the law. So we must suggest that he contrasts them to the people who live by the Sprit in v.4.

Romans 7 portraits a man that is mastered by, and thus living in the flesh. Chapter 8 portraits a man living in the Spirit. People who beleives that the Roman 7 man is converted need to explain why he is in the flesh in ch 7 when he is in the spirit in ch 8. Pauls experience in chapter 7 can be summarized by Rom 8:7

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be."

People think that Paul was converted in ch 7 because he loved God and appreciated the law. His problem was that he was married to the law instead of Christ. He experienced as a pharisee that "the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."
Rom 7:10.

In intertestamentary times the law became elevated above that which God had ordained it be. It served as basis for salvaton (Apoc Bar 51:7), of justification (Apoc Bar 51:3) and life (4 Ezra 7:21). This erroneous view was common among the pharisees and thus Paul. But Paul still found himself spiritual dead, unrighteous and hopelessly lost in sin.

But when he found Jesus the whole situation changed:

When there was frustration in ch 7 (v.24), there is peace in ch 8 (v.6).

In ch 7 there is spiritual death (v.10), but in ch 8 there is life (v.6).

In ch 7 there is defeat (v.15), but in ch 8 there is victory (v.13)

In ch 7 he is a slave to sin (v.14), but in ch 8 he is free from sin (v.2)

In chapter 7 he acts against the law of God (v.22.23) but in ch 8 he can through the Spirit obey Gods law (v.4)

In ch 7 he is a "wretched man", but in ch 8 he is a "child of God" (v.14)

In ch 7 he is driven by his flesh (v.23), but in ch 8 he is driven by the Spirit (v.14)

[Richard Myers]

Amen!!  Such a blessing to hear a simple explanation of these two chapters. It is not difficult unless one has been led astray by the false gospel. The false interpretation of Romans seven is the Devil's masterful deception that has gained a foothold in most all Christian churches.

Romans 8:1 sums up the whole matter. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  You will notice that many often quote half the verse to excuse their sins. But, the proof of the relationship is seen in the last half of the verse which so many fail to quote.

If you are reading this today and think that God will cover your sins that are unconfessed and unforsaken, you are in a great deception. to him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. The wages of sin is death. But, Christ takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. He calls to all, "Come unto me and I will give you life."

[Thomas M]

I have followed this discussion with great interest. I too have loved the book of Romans, and even as a teen went to the trouble of memorizing it. Perhaps I hoped that would help this untheological mind of mine to grasp its meaning, to little avail apparently, since I got a B on the post-graduate course on Romans I took at Andrews a generation ago, and was the only student required to redo the outline the teacher had required. I'm still as theologically muddled as ever, so cannot contribute to the wonderful discussion of the issues. When I read COP's letters, I thought they sounded right. And then when I read Brother Richard's, I was even more blessed. When I hear people say one cannot keep the commandments, I am in a quandary. To me, as lazy as I am, it is really quite much easier to sit peacefully on my own davenport listening to a Mozart sonata than to get up, break into my neighbour's house and steal his silver or rape his wife. I may be wrong.
But I would like to address a non-theological issue in a way I mentioned in another post. Forgive the repetition. In Brother Allen F's remarkable and illuminating post he noted: "In intertestamentary times the law became elevated above that which God had ordained it be."
It appears to me that there are two golden threads in the Hebrew Scriptures: the Messianic Promise and the Law. The priest, king and prophet all represented the messianic principle, as they were in the beginning anointed to their offices, thus being Messiahs. Their role was to interpret, apply, enhance, and safeguard the Law. But the Messianic hope in the intertestimentary period raised the suspicions of the Helenistic and later Roman rulers. This is part of the motivation for the appearance of the sects of Sadducees, who limited the application of the law to the detriment of the role of the Messiah, and the Pharisees, who dispensed with the need of the divinely appointed interpreter of the Law through Rabbinical method of interpretation. These sects allayed the fears of the emperor and permitted the Jerusalem establishment to exist within the Roman empire. This was the Law against which Paul is writing, this common, established abuse of the Law as a means of downplaying the messianic principle and accommodating to Rome.
I know this is a simplistic view that ignores the theological issues, but it is based on the major historical facts of the conditions of the Jerusalem establishment in the Roman empire of the first century. Any interpretation of writings that go back to that century must take those historical facts into consideration. It seems to me that the greater portion of Christian theology around that issue fails to do so. Refeshingly, this discussion, without mentioning the historical context as such, does not clash with it.
In sum, I would see Jesus as a conservative figure who maintained the older golden threads in balance, the law and the Messiah, and thus flew in the face of the established balance with Rome that his contemporary Judaism had made. No wonder the sermon on the mount seemed fresh to his listeners. Seen in this context, there is simply no conflict to resolve between Paul and Jesus in regard to the Law. Paul's whole point is to support the Messiah over and against the Sadducean and Pharisaic accommodating abuses of the Law. I haven't the mind to establish that theologically, but it seems clear to me as a historian of religions.