Author Topic: Separation of Church and State  (Read 29004 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #80 on: August 06, 2010, 05:52:13 AM »
California's prop 8, banning homosexual marriage has been declared illegal by a homosexual judge. This issue will be appealed probably to the US Supreme  Court. We can expect that separation of church and state will be an issue. Because homosexuality is viewed as immoral in the Bible, Christians and others do not want their children taught that it is something that is not immoral. No matter how much people want to avert this truth, it is at the foundation of the battle.

The ACLU has used the argument of separation of church and state to support immorality. They say that religious morals need to remain in the church, not in the public. Christians need to set the subject of separation between church and state on a secure footing. It does not mean that society has no right to legislate moral laws. To the contrary, the only morality there is, is found built upon God's law and all societies that are civil have based their legal code on those commandments which deal with man's relationship to man. The first four commandments deal with man's relationship with God and are not to be legislated.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #81 on: August 06, 2010, 10:34:20 AM »
In contemplating the outcome of the homosexual judge's decision to overturn the voters of California, I realized that when one neglects to do what is right, it has its influence for a long time. The Supreme Court judge that will decide this issue, if it goes to the Supreme Court, is probably Anthony Kennedy. The court is half liberal, half conservative with Kennedy being a swing vote. How does Kennedy look at such things?

Well, he is not opposed to homosexuality. He has voted against laws against homosexuality. The Court is a Catholic court, but that does not insure support for Biblical morality. Laws ought to be moral and this we do not see in the Catholic vote on the bench.

There is another similar case winding its way to through the courts that may hit the US Supreme Court before this one. A U.S. District Court in Massachusetts ruled that portions of the federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) are unconstitutional. DOMA defines marriage as the union of one man and one woman and prevents states from having to recognize gay marriages performed elsewhere. Obama abhors the Congressional law signed by GW Bush. They may not defend the law.

It is a revelation of where we are in the scheme of things. The world is as it was at the time of the flood. But, this is not an excuse to ignore the indoctrination of children into immorality. Separation of Church and state was never intended for such a purpose. The legalization of immorality is not the intent of the wall of separation between church and state. This is a modern development brought about because of the decline of morality in the church.  

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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #82 on: September 21, 2010, 09:33:40 AM »
It is interesting to note that England has just officially welcomed the pope. Has this a bearing on the separation of church and state? Some have expressed that thought since it has been many years since such a thing has happened in England (prior to the Protestant Reformation).

When two countries get together on a political basis, as is this visit, and one of these is a religious state, the Vatican, then there is a concern about the separation of church and state. The reformation was founded on the principle of separation between church and state.  Here we find some who bring up the subject of the "Protestant Reformation" during his visit:

“We believe in the protestant reformation, and we stand here to celebrate it today – we stand for the same principles that John Knox did.

“How dare the Pope come here on the 450th anniversary of the reformation?”

 “We reject the word of the man Joseph Ratzinger, who claims he can give salvation and claims if you pay £25 to attend the Mass in Glasgow you will have years of purgatory with your sins – there is no such thing.

“The Pope claims he is another Christ, but there is only one Christ and we stand for salvation through him alone – not from the word of a man.

“No sacrifice but Christ.
 source
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2010, 06:58:51 AM »
Because of the spurious argument that the ACLU has made that the wall of separation between church and state addresses any "moral" legislation, many Protestant Christians have been led to a point where they want to tear this wall down. But, they go too far. The ACLU is wrong. There is a wall, but it only speaks to the issue of the first four commandments, which relate to how we worship God. There is to be no legislation interfering with our worship of God. There is to be no state church.

Can we point to churches that want to violate this Constitutional principle? And what is the result of tearing down the wall of separtion  beteen church and state?
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Wally

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2010, 10:54:43 AM »
I'm not sure about specific churches, but there are some ministries who make no bones about their opposition to the principle of separation of church and state.  Coral Ridge Ministries is one prominent one that comes to mind.  It was founded by D. James Kennedy, who died several years ago.

It is quite clear to me that the elimination of the wall of separation between church and state would lead inevitably to a situation similar to that during the Dark Ages.  I'm always amazed at how short-sighted these people are.  How is it that they cannot reason from cause to effect, and see that whenever government and religion mix, persecution of the minority is guaranteed?
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JimB

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2010, 01:33:49 PM »
The argument is that the term "wall of separation" is not found in the Constitution and that is correct. That term comes from a personal letter sent to someone by Jefferson who was trying to explain what the founders were trying to do. It was clear that this what the constitution and bill of rights were meant to do. Although the exact term may not be found in the constitution itself you will find it in the principle behind it. I don't have time now... but it would be interesting if someone could find and post that letter from Jefferson so we could all see it.
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colporteur

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2010, 03:51:42 PM »
That is such a pitifully weak argument that evangelicals and Catholics try to get mileage out of. The word "Bible" does not exist in the entire Bible yet there is not a campaign against referring to it as the Bible. A little common sense should tell people that your relationship between you and God is between you and God. I guess is common sense were so common we would not be headed toward persecution.

I believe the problem is in understanding what it means to have separation of church and state. Irrespective of what you wish to call it the constitution is clear that no law is to be made in respect to a religion. Of course they must necessarily twist the true interpretatation of the constitution to extreme to make it say exactly opposite of what it says and then bring in a Sunday law. Just one of many ways they circument the constitution is to claim a Sunday law is not in respect to any religion. Riiiight !  It's secular and the Pope is not Catholic either. Another way they deviate is to say that a Sunday law is not in respect to any particular religion but for all religions ? How about SDAs? Is it in respect to them? Only if they desire to force them supposedly for their own good.  It is amzing how Satan takes control of the mind. He led his friends to burn God's people at the stake and then led them to rationalize that this was not only for the good of society but it was for the good of the one who is doing penanace for his own sins by his own blood atonement.
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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2010, 03:59:15 PM »
Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from prescribing even those occasional performances of devotion, practiced indeed by the Executive of another nation as the legal head of its church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.



http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
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JimB

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #88 on: November 16, 2010, 06:40:34 AM »
Thanks Sybil, it's clear to me that the unmentioned "wall of separation" was the intent of the founders. However, it's a tricky thing to say that I know the intent of the authors. That is how the constitution gets re-interpreted. Because judges believe they know the intent of founders of this "living and breathing" document.  ::)
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #89 on: November 16, 2010, 11:48:12 AM »
We certainly have the words of Jefferson as to what they intended. And their intentions were very good when seen in the light of Biblical truth. Protestants above all people ought to understand that you don't legislate the first four commandments. Luther understood and the reformation clearly taught liberty of conscience. But, it seems few rightly understand what it means to be a Protestant.

This brings me back to my question as to which religions may think it proper to legislate in this area? I am not asking for opinions, but rather factual information that reveals some religions do not respect the United States constitution and the liberties granted therein.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2011, 08:39:22 PM »
The Protestant Reformation was based upon liberty of conscience and "Sola Scriptura", the Bible and the Bible only.  Both were unknown in Roman Catholicism at the time. What is the Roman Church's stance today on the important Biblical principle of "liberty of conscience"? I have studied this matter quite a bit, but would like to know that others think.

Here we find being reported some thoughts regarding liberty of conscience by a Roman Catholic priest:

For the future of the dialogue, Fr. Samir believes there needs to be a new recognition in Muslim countries of the need to respect freedom of conscience and the rights of religious minorities. He said few Muslims have yet to see the issue as important in political or religious terms.

“The importance of liberty of conscience, few people feel that or understand it,” he said. “But the Pope is repeating it — and in my experience it is fundamental.”

While he is optimistic about the possibilities of peaceful co-existence, Fr. Samir believes there must be an agreement within Islam that all violence is “anti-religion” and in fact, a work of the devil.
source

These are very strong statements coming from an institution that has in the past not valued liberty of conscience in matters of worship. It would be a great blessing to know that the Vatican and her church will not attempt to interfere in state matters that involve matters of worship.

The Roman priest, Samir, has stated an important Biblical truth, "The importance of liberty of conscience....in my experience it is fundamental." And he states that "the pope is repeating it--" They are correct when they state that the Muslim religion does not separate church from state. Therefore, the state is put in the position to force allegiance in matters of worship. Thus we see violence against those who convert from the Muslim religion.

This Roman priest has introduced the subject of separation between church and state and has indicated that Rome values the Protestant principle.  Commenting on Islam he said “In their mentality, the West is still seen as Christian nations. It is still Christianity against Islam — precisely because they don’t make a distinction between religion and the state.” Often in false religions we find inconsistencies in such important matters.
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Mimi

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2011, 08:40:31 PM »
Quote
Often in false religions we find inconsistencies in such important matters.

I should say so!
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Marelis

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2011, 09:36:40 AM »
The Protestant Reformation was based upon liberty of conscience and "Sola Scriptura", the Bible and the Bible only.  Both were unknown in Roman Catholicism at the time. What is the Roman Church's stance today on the important Biblical principle of "liberty of conscience"? I have studied this matter quite a bit, but would like to know that others think.
The current pope and his bishops may give the appearance of defending religious liberty but we know that the papacy does not change.  And so we look for inconsistencies.  The RCC says one thing in and for the US but in practise does not encourage such policies in Catholic countries like Spain and France.

Time will eventually reveal that the papacy is happy to embrace and accommodate all religions so long as they acknowledge the authority of the papacy and accept its token of authority. 
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colporteur

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #93 on: February 05, 2011, 12:17:40 PM »
The other day I listened to a radio program in the vehicle while driving.
The Grace Baptist Church was talking of their roots and how Biblical they are. They were correct in that they were talking about the separation of church and state being  necessary for freedom. They talked positively of William Miller and the Great Awakening. Unfortunately they did not follow through beyond the Great Dissapointment but it was nice to see that they at least held to the separation of church and state. Either these churches will repudiate this or else they will come inot the movement spawned at the time of the Great Dissapointment. We have a work to do. I found myself wishing I could speak with the pastor after the broadcast and fill in the empty blanks. He may know something of what we know but I somehow doubt that he has seen the whole picture.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #94 on: February 05, 2011, 03:05:36 PM »
No, he has not seen the whole picture. Many have not. It is why this topic is so very important. The honest of heart will understand that Islam must allow free choice in matters of religion. There can be no love of God when it is forced. Love is awakened by love, not by compulsion. Laws that are moral in regards to interpersonal relationships are within the bounds of government. But, only in  theocracy can there be laws dealing with how we worship God. We have no theocracy today. It ended with Israel. God dwelt with man in His temple, but that is no longer. He now dwells in the heart of all will invite Him in.

And the laws of how we relate one to another are to be moral laws. There is only one standard of morality. It is found in Scripture.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2011, 10:13:00 AM »
The meltdown in the Middle East and Northern Africa is an interesting lesson to follow that pertains directly to our current topic. The issue is said by many to be the need for democracy in these countries. God would have liberty for all of His children. But, because we are living at the very end of time, it appears that Satan will not be allowing liberty of conscience to be a statute in most countries in the world. The United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights are not the pattern for many other countries, and I don't think we shall be seeing such governments established in these Muslim lands. From my reading of Bible prophecy, it may be that Jordan is the best chance for such a government, but I even doubt that. My understanding of the Islamic faith is that there is no provision for liberty of conscience, and that there is no provision for separation of church and state. They appear to be very closely aligned with the teachings of the papacy in this area. The church is to rule the governments and the individual is to follow the dictates of the leadership and if not, then the strong arm of government is to enforce church dogma.

We are witnessing the last struggle amongst nations and religions just before Jesus returns.
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Donna H

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2011, 12:22:59 PM »
Time will eventually reveal that the papacy is happy to embrace and accommodate all religions so long as they acknowledge the authority of the papacy and accept its token of authority.  

I have the suspicion that, to the Catholic church, freedom of church and state is intended to lead to the false unity we are seeing so much of now in this world: all religions are equal, that the common themes of different faiths are more important than holding true to correct Biblical understanding.

Has this priest said anything as to why he said this? Has he addressed his logic and reasoning, his background  and has he addressed the contradictions with the RC church's past actions in this principle?
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2011, 01:12:31 PM »
Those are very good questions to ask, Donna. I doubt that you will find that the papacy nor Islam has changed the foundation principles of their religions. From what I have seen in the world today, both would like to use the state to enforce legislation regarding matters of worship.  Islam does not deny this. Many Protestants and Roman Catholics deny that the church would force matters of worship. But, we are seeing a change in attitudes.

The importance of this topic today can be seen by the lack of moral laws and the response to such abominations. We have good being called evil and evil being called good and legislated. Obama has a national day to honor homosexuals.

The whiplash is coming and it will not stop with legislation to control immoral acts between people, but will enter the domain of worship where the state has no business. Protestantism is responsible for the freedom of religion found around the world. The pattern was established by the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. But, America appears to be quickly repudiating its Protestant heritage. The papacy has called for national Sunday laws around the world. This is contrary to what the Roman Catholic priest has stated. Fr. Samir must not be aware of the call for the state to enforce Sunday sacredness, unless he does not really believe "there needs to be a new recognition in Muslim countries of the need to respect freedom of conscience and the rights of religious minorities."
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #98 on: March 02, 2011, 05:42:31 PM »
 Christian Killed In Pakistan

9 Militants gunned down the lone Christian in Pakistan's gov't, the second assassination in 2 months of a senior official opposed to blasphemy laws that impose the death penalty for insulting Islam. Shahbaz Bhatti, a Catholic, was shot at 8 times in his car outside his mother's home. Al-Qaida and a Taliban group claimed responsibility. The blasphemy issue has splintered the ruling coalition.  source
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2011, 02:45:38 PM »
One may ask, how is it that homosexuals are able to persecute Christian children in public schools? And how is it that they are able to be married in some states?  One enabling factor is that there are professing Christians who believe for a number of reasons that it is not right to oppose their progress.  One of the arguments put forward is the separation between church and state.  Let us hear the argument for doing so if anyone has any thoughts on it.  I don't see any moral basis for voting for homosexual marriage based on the principle of separation between church and state any more than I would believe that we ought not have laws against murder because of separation between church and state. That a "Christian" would support or allow by his silence the recognition by the state of homosexual marriage reveals how far removed from Scripture many in the church now find themselves.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.