Author Topic: Separation of Church and State  (Read 26194 times)

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Wally

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2008, 02:26:10 PM »
Moral="of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior."
Morality="conformity to ideals of right human conduct."

Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary

Brother Arnold, I can't follow your logic (or lack thereof) anymore. Could just be my advance age, of course. ;D

It just may be that the majority's understanding of what constitutes "right and wrong in behavior" may be different than yours.  Who decides?  It sounds like you want to be the one to make that decision.  All laws, by nature, are an attempt to legislate morality of some kind.  You seem to be confusing God's law with man's law.  Only totalitarian regimes presume to legislate how you think.  Not even in the theocracy of Israel was there punishment for how one thought in their mind--only when it resulted in an evil act.  It makes no sense that a just because a law against adultery was enacted, it would also have to include the lustful thought or look.  You can call it inconsistent if you want.  But the same thing applies to laws against theft and murder.  No one goes to jail for wishing they could kill someone, or wishing they could rob a bank.  It is impossible to have laws like that.

I am becoming convinced that, in spite of well stated arguments by other members of this forum, you are not willing to change your position on anything.  But, I won't state that categorically, since I'm so new to this forum and don't know your past record.

And, by the way, you are correct--alcohol does not deal with morality--it destroys it!!!
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Mimi

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2008, 02:32:59 PM »

I HAVE NO PROBLEMS RESTRICTING BEHAVIORS FOR THE PURPOSE OF PROTECTING PEOPLE FROM THOSE WHO WOULD HURT THEM.

Sweet Arnold ... it not a matter of someone ignoring page after page of what you are saying ... it is the way in which it is being presented that is:

#1.  Confusing
#2.  Convoluted
#3.  Sometimes seemingly contradictory
#4.  Beyond the bounds of our discussion

This is what I am experiencing - and it looks as though I am not alone. Typically you are very articulate, dear brother - but this one has been difficult to follow. Rein it in, dear brother and apply some patience. This is not an easy topic.

Sabbath blessings! /s

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asygo

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2008, 03:51:09 PM »
No... I'm not looking for thought police. 90% of the people in our country would be in jail.

Great! Now we're getting on the same page. Though I think 90% is being generous.

I would still call murdering someone an immoral behavior. I think our disagreement is semantics and definitions.

Definitions do play a fundamental role. And if we don't get our semantics right, we will be caught in verbal traps. So let's look at murder as an example.

Define murder. Is injecting someone with poison for the purpose of killing them necessarily count as murder? How about electrocuting someone on purpose?

Now, consider those whose job is to execute those sentenced to the death penalty. That's exactly what they do. And their victims are usually not willing participants. Are they guilty of murder? Or more specifically to our topic, is their behavior immoral?

Next, consider someone who does exactly the same thing, but gets his participants by kidnapping morning joggers. Is that behavior immoral?

I hope you see that even in man's eyes, murder includes more than mere behavior. And if we consider the true standard of morality - God's law - then we go way past behavior.

But I'd still call a law against murder a moral law. Thus legislating morality.

You want true morality? Then if you want to legislate murder, you must outlaw hate. Unless you are willing to do that, then you are not legislating morality, only behavior. Immoral behavior? That depends, as shown above.
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Arnold M. Sy Go
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JimB

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2008, 04:35:12 PM »
You want true morality? Then if you want to legislate murder, you must outlaw hate. Unless you are willing to do that, then you are not legislating morality, only behavior. Immoral behavior? That depends, as shown above.

I disagree. Only God can legislate hate and lust. But man can legislate murder. As a matter of fact we've been told that we must.
Quote
Gen 9:6  Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
I've already said many times that man's laws can not change the heart. That is not the purpose of man made laws. I'm not sure that I understand your point in the rest of your post. All I know is that murder and stealing are immoral acts (behavior) and I want laws that control those immoral behaviors (actions). So I also wish that our voted law makers continue to legislate morality in this fashion. Do I expect these laws to change anyone's heart?? Nope!!! But our man made laws are patterned after the last 6 commandments.
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

asygo

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2008, 05:09:23 PM »
It just may be that the majority's understanding of what constitutes "right and wrong in behavior" may be different than yours.  Who decides?  It sounds like you want to be the one to make that decision.

I wrote this in reply to your post. Did you read it?
Where I draw the line for what you do or don't do to me is what I like or dislike. Where I draw the line for what I do or don't do with myself has little to do with what I like or dislike. It is based on what I believe God wants me to do.

How in the world can you think that I want to be the one to decide what is right and wrong? Do you read what I write? If you do, please prove it to me, because I don't think you do. In my statement, who decides what is right and wrong?

What I don't want is for you or your elected officials to tell me what is right and wrong. You can decide what you like and don't like, and even pass laws to restrict my behavior to make me conform. You have the ability to do that by getting the majority to agree with you. But when it comes to right and wrong, not you nor your elected officials nor the majority has any say. What is normal, maybe; common, maybe; socially acceptable, maybe; but not right and wrong. Only God decides what is right and wrong.

I am becoming convinced that, in spite of well stated arguments by other members of this forum, you are not willing to change your position on anything.

Is that the standard set before us? Follow the one who changes his mind? Reject the one who doesn't?

And if I happened to agree with you on those points that I didn't change my mind on? Would you then praise me for my firm stand on truth?

If you want me to change my position, it would certainly help if you fairly assessed my position before attacking it. But straw men only annoy me.
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Arnold M. Sy Go
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Wally

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2008, 05:16:10 PM »
Stalemate!  Sorry, can't follow your line of reasoning.  Speaking of semantics, it looks from here like you've engaged in a bit of semantic confusion.  I'm in the same position as Sybil, and so will retire from this debate--at least for awhile.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

asygo

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2008, 05:25:54 PM »
Here's a summary to make it simple: God decides what's moral, not you.
By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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asygo

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2008, 06:28:29 PM »
At the risk of making things more convoluted, I'll elaborate for those who understand the summary.

  • Only God sets the standard for morality.
  • Morality is a matter of the character.
  • Bodily actions, in and of themselves, are amoral. The motivation behind the actions make it moral or immoral.
  • Only God can read the heart.
  • Therefore, only God can judge who is or is not moral.
  • Certain types of behavior are detrimental to society.
  • Man can and must make laws to restrict such behavior.
  • Since man cannot read the heart, his judgments are limited to evaluating behavior.
  • Since morality is a matter of character, man cannot legislate it.

An argument for logicians:
  • Morality is a matter of the heart.
  • The heart is judged only by God.
  • Therefore, morality is judged only by God.

Here's an invalid argument:
  • Murder is controlled by morality.
  • Murder is controlled by man.
  • Therefore, morality can be controlled by man.

Here's another invalid argument that I've seen for weeks:
  • Arnold doesn't want morality legislated.
  • Murder involves morality.
  • Therefore, Arnold doesn't want murder legislated.

I've never been good at prose. Maybe the point-by-point assertions will be easier to understand.

And with that, I will sign off. See you all someday. Email me if you need me.
By God's grace,
Arnold M. Sy Go
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Dalfie

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2008, 07:13:56 PM »
Arnold,

I understand what you are trying to say... I think that our preconceptions of terms do get in the way of comprehension sometimes.

The viewpoint you present (and that of Dora's) most closely resemble the conclusions I have come to based on my study.

I think it most unfortunate to lose your fellowship due to this topic... I do hope that you will reconsider.

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2008, 09:28:35 PM »

But never confuse behavior management with morality. That's why are children are so messed up - because parents think managing behavior is all it takes to be Christian.

When you say that you want to legislate morality, yet refuse to punish all adultery (including wandering eyes) with death (which is God's prescribed penalty), then you are being arbitrary and hypocritical. Half obedience is disobedience.

If you really want to achieve morality, then you had better condemn ALL sin, and punish all sin with DEATH. That's what I am pushing for. Are you ready for that? If not, then don't even claim to be legislating morality, because you are not.

Brother Arnold, I feel as you, have you ever seen a post here that suggests one be executed for adultery? No. You miss the point. Your idea of what we mean by moral laws is not what we are saying. You want to make that our argument, but it is not. We want laws that deal with outward behavior based on what the Bible says not what you or I think. We are not asking the state to produce converts or moral people. Yet, you continue to bring this into the discussion. 

You say "If you really want to achieve morality, then you had better condemn ALL sin, and punish all sin with DEATH. That's what I am pushing for. Are you ready for that? If not, then don't even claim to be legislating morality, because you are not."

You are way off in left field. The morality you speak of is of the heart and only Christ can change that. I can speak of all involved here and say none have even remotely thought of this. And, none have posted anything that can be construed to suggest this.

You say "But never confuse behavior management with morality. That's why are children are so messed up - because parents think managing behavior is all it takes to be Christian."

No one is confused, but you. We are to legislate morality in having moral laws, not in producing moral (in heart) people. It is an easy concept. As all have been posting, we agree that "thou shalt not murder" is a moral law, and that "thou shalt not steal" is a moral law. But, you and the ACLU do not agree that we ought to have a "thou shalt not commit adultery" or "thou shalt not do homosexual acts". All would be moral laws and ought to be legislated with punishment as the society deems appropriate, not the Bible which gave guidelines for a theocracy.

Let me give an example of why we ought to have laws dealing with both of these now socially acceptable abominations. As in the case of the woman who was dragged to Christ and He sent her away without sentencing her, our laws ought to address these crimes in an appropriate manner. Sister Dora's suggestion that spies report suspected adultery is not the issue. Here is the issue. We have need to address homosexuality and adultery every time it is an issue in a divorce, custody, or adoption. But, the immoral ones are destroying little ones because of the arguments you have put forward. The guilty ones, need to be seen and marked as guilty before society, but you refuse to do so. Brother Arnold, you need to rethink your position. Many are indeed being hurt by these immoral acts and by the fact that society now has made them legal, and by so doing, acceptable. These are not victimless crimes as you suggest. Every time a child is split in half in order that the adulterer may have half, a child is hurt. Every time a home is split in half that the adulterer may get his half, a child or innocent spouse is hurt. My dear brother, you find yourself defending sin, when there is no need to.

This is a very important issue today. It is one that demands discernment and a public statement of what is not only Constitutional, but Christian. Sadly, very few are expressing the correct position. It is for a time such as this that Seventh-day Adventists have been given not only great light, but the leading of the Holy Spirit. Let us submit our ideas and our heart to Him and each other.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dora

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2008, 12:10:31 PM »
Brother Richard,
You said: Sister Dora's suggestion that spies report suspected adultery is not the issue.   I was only giving an illustration as to how such things can get out of hand when our government is given too much authority over our lives, and how such things are reported, whether true or not.  Again, look at the communist countries, everyone turned against his neighbor.

If we want to get to the root of so very much of our trouble, IMHO, we would attack the entertainment industry, but that won't happen, for there is too much money involved. I won't even go into all the ways, but most of the world (even "Christians,") invites filth into their homes every day, and thinks nothing about it, exposing the small children to the most horrific crimes, all kinds of sexual acts, and words that almost sear the ears off a Christian's head, it would seem.  I am sure you don't allow this in your home, and I do not believe anyone on this board allows it, for I see us as a committed family in Christ.

 My friend went to CA to visit her family, and she was telling me how shocking it was to see her 9 year old grandchild playing on the floor, with the TV blasting out obscenities.  Now, I could believe it would be good to stop these things, but would that be removing "freedoms of speech?"  There is such a fine line.

Yet, how many of us would be willing to allow the government to come and tell us what kind of electronics we can have in our home? What we watch, what we listen to? That is where it all begins, with our eyes, with our thoughts, before it becomes behaviours. Can those things be legislated?

I want laws in place to restrict behaviours, but we do have them, thankfully.
And, as much as I don't believe homosexuality is right, I don't want someone beaten to death and hung over a fence, and the law blink their eyes at it.  Not only do I care about that being wrong, but soon it will be that "if you are different, in any way, such as going to church on 'the wrong day' you may be thought to deserve bad treatment."

I won't even get into "behaviour management and morality," there definitely is a difference.  But, yes, I do want dangerous people locked up, I do want laws against drunk driving, and on...and, again, if I were going to attack morality through management by the state..I think I would start with the entertainment industry.  But, again, that is not going to happen.

Have I made myself clear at all?  Each time, I think "I just won't post on this topic again, for I cannot get across what I mean, and don't understand why I can't."  Yet, I keep trying.....
Dora

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2008, 10:19:13 PM »

Have I made myself clear at all?  Each time, I think "I just won't post on this topic again, for I cannot get across what I mean, and don't understand why I can't."  Yet, I keep trying.....

:)  It is an important topic. You keep posting because you know that God would have us reason together in a loving and kind manner. You are safe in doing so.  :)  I understand your thinking. The reason why I respond is because I see an opening to move us closer together. I know what is your concern. I too am concerned. But, hanging a homosexual on a fence post has nothing to do with the laws that made it illegal to attack another human in such a manner(homosexual) even if he consented. It is a crime and there is a victim. It is the same thing with sex with animals and amalgamation. Your argument against civil laws based upon Bible law falls apart quickly if we are given time to explore where it leads. Amalgamation in the interest of science is what is happening. Only morality, Bible morality, would understand how wrong this is. The majority are going to allow this. They are not caring about God and His Word. God's Word tells us in advance, but the world learns after the disaster, and even then continues ahead.

No, we need to look to Scripture as our pattern, not to man's wisdom. Laws need to be moral, not immoral. The involvement of the state in church matters is forbidden. Of course one must consider that if the "church" wants to sacrifice children it is not what we are talking about. This subject is not that difficult for us to figure out. But, we must look to the Bible for our wisdom, not man. The laws of societies around the world are based upon the law of God. Yes, some depart more than others and all are moving away more and more as the end nears. My concern is that we follow the light we have which includes supporting laws against the manufacture of alcohol. Looks pretty far out in the discussion we have been having. But, you know it is true and it will help you to find the right position in regards to having moral laws. Brother Arnold is dead set against such legislation. He is a "libertarian" and wants all to do as they wish in their own home. Let them kill themselves and others, then throw them in jail. No, that is contrary to the light we have been given.

We will get there. My concern is that there are many who are following this subject and they need to see a true Biblical and Constitutional position on this coming from our church. The ungodly ACLU position is to be argued against. And, so is the position of the "moral majority", the Evangelical Right who would remove the true wall of separation between church and state.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Wally

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #72 on: January 23, 2008, 03:42:55 AM »

 My concern is that there are many who are following this subject and they need to see a true Biblical and Constitutional position on this coming from our church. The ungodly ACLU position is to be argued against. And, so is the position of the "moral majority", the Evangelical Right who would remove the true wall of separation between church and state.

Thank-you Richard for that last paragraph.  I think that sums it up nicely.

I am sorry that Arnold got upset enough to leave the scene, hopefully not permanently.  We may not always agree on all points in these discussions, but I believe that one of the purposes of this and other forums is to lift each other up, to learn from each other, and to encourage each other to become more grounded in the truth.  If others do not see it our way, so be it.  If our position is true, and others are seeking truth, they will see it in time--if it is essential to their salvation.  The converse is also true:  if my position is wrong and I am seeking truth, God will show it to me in time--if it is essential to my salvation.  But I hope that none of us will become so upset over the fact that our position is not shared by the others on the forum, that we will depart in a bad frame of mind.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #73 on: January 23, 2008, 03:48:55 AM »
Sister Dora, I was thinking about your concern with the foul entertainment industry and realized that you do not want pornography sent into people's homes by this foul industry, do you? Shall we allow the manufacture of the most foul pornography and then allow it to be distributed over the internet in America? Do you want laws that allow American companies to produce such foul things in the name of "liberty"?  If so, you have a lot of people who are not even Christians that do not want this and will vote to stop it. And how do you feel about laws that stop prostitution? Shall we make this a forbidden area? Open the door wide to immorality? No, I think when we take a closer look at this argument of not allowing moral laws, we shall see the absurdity of it.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #74 on: January 23, 2008, 03:59:06 AM »

I am sorry that Arnold got upset enough to leave the scene, hopefully not permanently.  We may not always agree on all points in these discussions, but I believe that one of the purposes of this and other forums is to lift each other up, to learn from each other, and to encourage each other to become more grounded in the truth.  If others do not see it our way, so be it.  If our position is true, and others are seeking truth, they will see it in time--if it is essential to their salvation.  The converse is also true:  if my position is wrong and I am seeking truth, God will show it to me in time--if it is essential to my salvation.  But I hope that none of us will become so upset over the fact that our position is not shared by the others on the forum, that we will depart in a bad frame of mind.

Brother Arnold has a tough skin. He is ok. He just likes to present the argument for us to consider.

Brother Wally, you are right! We want to know the truth, that is why we read and post. We are not stuck in error. If it be wrong, we want to know it. Yes, you are acting according to Bible principle and we so much appreciate your participation. Some enter into these difficult discussions bent on all seeing it their way, but are unwilling to listen to what others say when it contradicts their understanding. This is not good. We must listen to others and do so in a gentle manner, but while holding firm to what we understand to be truth. This particular subject is important even though it does not bear directly upon salvation. The decline in morality is a result of many things, not the least of which is the legislation that abandons Bible morality, much of which is pushed  by the ACLU. What children are exposed to in society has a lot to do with their perceptions and their character formation.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dora

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2008, 07:56:48 AM »
Brother Richard, here I go again!  Let me try once more! :)  You said:"Your argument against civil laws based upon Bible law falls apart quickly if we are given time to explore where it leads

I did not mean to give the impression at all that I do not believe civil laws should be based on Bible laws. In the past I have taught the Junior class using that very illustration, as to how much worse this world would be without those civil laws, and that most are based on Bible laws. 

For example, the city near us has gone "smokeless" even in their bars.  That is ok, it may keep some people from dying with lung cancer.  If the state wants to pass laws against prostitution, that seems like it would be a good thing.  Who wants to see such things being practiced?  Now, to the entertainment industry, from the day Rhett Butler uttered his famous words in "Gone With the Wind," little by little cursing has become common, and filth of all kinds has crept in. If laws were made to keep this off the airwaves, that would be fine with me. But, those laws will not be made, there is too much money involved, so we have to make choices as to what we will personally do. That is why we use a TV only for Christian videos, it is not even hooked up to an antenna. I don't even want 3ABN, for I had rather have more choice as to what I watch.

Now, here is where my thinking seems to get confusing to you and some others.  I was talking with my husband about this a while ago.  I asked him if he thought there should be laws preventing the entertainment industry to have filth and pornography on the TV and the Internet.  Well, of course, the answer seems like it would have to be yes...but what if they did not stop there?  What if they said, "The Remnant Online" is offensive to some people?  Amazing Facts, and other sites and programs which have the truth?

And, once more, I will ask, what if one day the police came to your (or my) door, saying they had a report that you were breaking the law because you were watching a video on let's say, "The State of the Dead?"  Let's say you have showed it to your neighbor, and they told the police, stating that they just know that "Uncle Joe" is in Heaven right now, and you are breaking the law for saying otherwise.  And, some may say, "That is just too drastic, that couldn't happen."  I hope you are right, but my fear is this about the home.  Once the state is allowed to monitor our homes, (and no doubt that is soon coming, and to some degree is already here,) how far do you think they will be able to go?  As far as they want, according to the individuals who are in charge of the monitoring.  All one has to do is read true accounts of what has happened in the past, and is still happening in some places.  I am wondering, unless there is personal harm to someone reported, should our homes be invaded?  Is there no privacy left?
Dora

Cop

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2008, 08:36:05 PM »
Dora said:
Quote
I was talking with my husband about this a while ago.  I asked him if he thought there should be laws preventing the entertainment industry to have filth and pornography on the TV and the Internet.  Well, of course, the answer seems like it would have to be yes...but what if they did not stop there?  What if they said, "The Remnant Online" is offensive to some people?  Amazing Facts, and other sites and programs which have the truth?

Recently, Doug Bathelor stated that Amazing Facts has been banned and removed from Canadian TV. This is because of his statements from Scripture concerning homosexuality being a sin. Due to this sexual perversion now being considered as a protected right, anything that offends those who practice it is now illegal. TV and radio programs are now being removed and pastors have been jailed because they "offend" homosexuals. If SDA Congresswoman Sheila Jackson Lee (D) gets her way, this will also be the law in the U.S.

Did this come to be because of laws restricting homosexuality, pornography, foul language, etc.? No. It has happened because all laws making such activities illegal have been declared 'null and void' and restictive of the rights of a few by the Supreme Court. Whenever evil is not restrained, it grows, contaminates the pure, spreads its poison and destroys.

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2009, 06:30:19 PM »
I asked him if he thought there should be laws preventing the entertainment industry to have filth and pornography on the TV and the Internet.  Well, of course, the answer seems like it would have to be yes...but what if they did not stop there?  What if they said, "The Remnant Online" is offensive to some people?  Amazing Facts, and other sites and programs which have the truth?

As Brother Cop has pointed out, it is already happening. The two are not connected. Filth and immorality are running rampant. What if instead of just on television, they put their filth on top of cars and paraded it around for all to see? I am not talking about soft porn, but hardcore. Are you still willing to allow man to endanger our children and ourselves? There is common sense involved in this. Fear cannot move us to make decisions as to what is moral and lawful. Right now there are indeed laws against pornography on television. It is good and we need to fight any change, even at the risk of other laws that will hurt us. Right is right and we need to have moral laws based on Bible morality.

More than having a law, the principle is what I am presenting. Americans need to see where the line is to be drawn in principle between church and state. It has nothing to do with moral laws between people. It has to do with how we relate to God. This is the correct principle we are to teach when discussing separation of church and state. And there is to be no religious test, no state religion, nor any restriction against the freedom to worship.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Sister Glass

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2009, 08:44:30 PM »
This is so true. I am going to take this one sentence here...
Quote
"There is common sense involved in this."
This too is true, but sad to say, has anyone noticed that they don't make sense? We present sense and they don't see sense. They are so filled with self will and desire and deception from Satan that they cannot see what they are doing. It is very hard for us to fight against people who don't think on a sensible note, especially when so much of the world is on the same sinking ship as they are. [/i][/b][/color]
With Christian Love,
Marie

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2009, 08:23:57 AM »
The idea of putting their filth on monitors perched atop cars is being done. When taking my mother to the hospital in San Francisco, we just happened to arrive on the night of the homosexual celebration. Besides having naked bodies in the streets, we had to ignore the monitors on top of cars projecting their filth. Yes, God would have moral laws rejecting such filth from entering into the minds of those not yet completely subdued by the evil one.

And having one monitor was not enough. There were four so that all could see their filth. This is an extreme, but it gets the principle across. It has nothing to do with separation of church and state. It has to do with moral laws to protect society. Right now, the pornography is kept off the airwaves, but it is broadcast via cable into homes and hotels. The next step will be via the airwaves unless the pope and the evangelicals are successful. They are fighting against the filth. Yes, Satan works both sides of the street. Where will we be found? Wise, yet harmless.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.