Author Topic: Separation of Church and State  (Read 27453 times)

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JimB

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2011, 04:28:18 PM »
Let us hear the argument for doing so if anyone has any thoughts on it. 

Not that I'm making this argument ....but what I've heard people say/write is that to prohibit homosexual marriage is forcing "your" religious beliefs into state/federal laws and since it is your religious beliefs that compel you to vote or legislate this way you violate the separation of church and state. In other words you are forcing your ideas of morality on others who don't believe the same way.
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Wally

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2011, 05:14:10 PM »
One problem with that argument is that is sidesteps the issue to make it one of religious persecution (forcing one's religious views on a minority), when in reality it is one of civil order and the preservation of a stable society.

History is on the side of those who wish to retain the historical institution of marriage as it has existed from the beginning.  It promotes a stable society by facilitating stable families (the current proclivity for easy divorce notwithstanding).  Societies that have stable families prosper.  A departure from the historical institution of marriage will retard civilization, not advance it.  Any new definition of marriage will lead to a chaotic situation.  Government will not have the means to meet all its obligations to all the new spouses created by this new law.  This reaches into many areas:  social security payments; disability; insurance; etc., etc.  It will open the proverbial Pandora's box and lead to many untended consequences.

I'm not a lawyer, an historian, or an orator, but I believe someone out there could stand before Congress and make a compelling argument for keeping the traditional institution of marriage intact--without even mentioning religion.

But I believe this will get worse before it gets better.  The "moral majority" will get pushed too far, and the backlash could be one of the catalysts that leads us down the road to the end of religious liberty.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2011, 08:19:52 PM »
Yes, Wally that is exactly what is going to  happen. When immorality gets to where it today, when evil is called good and good is called evil, then you know that something is going to happen.  The ACLU has taken the side of the immoral ones by making the argument of separation between church and state.  The wall of separation has nothing to do with moral laws, it has to do with establishing a religion or prohibiting one. All immorality between people may be legislated. One may ask, what is immoral?  And, there we see the reduction of a once great Protestant nation that had no problem in knowing right from wrong, to a "professing" Christian nation that will indeed use this battle to move beyond what is Constitutional and impose a religious law having to do with worship.

There  is nothing unconstitutional about legislating laws against homosexuality, incest, or adultery.  When divorce is treated as 50/50 split after adultery, you can know that the society is far gone. Splitting the kids down the middle after such a crime is certainly not in the best interests of the children or society.  It is like the abominable argument that capital punishment is not a deterrent to murder.  It surely is and it would be a lot better deterrent if the executions were done speedily after a fair trial where the guilty was condemned by the testimony of two or more witnesses.

On the other hand society is so corrupt that we may be beyond executing anyone since there is a greater chance that innocent ones will be executed. That does not set aside the argument of what ought to have been. Those who vote for homosexual marriage are helping society to demand children be educated that homosexuality is just another lifestyle.  Laws are beginning to pop us demanding just such a course.  It is discrimination to do otherwise.   :(  Very sad, especially when Christian join the band as it plays on.
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Marelis

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #103 on: July 04, 2011, 01:00:46 PM »
One problem with that argument is that is sidesteps the issue to make it one of religious persecution (forcing one's religious views on a minority), when in reality it is one of civil order and the preservation of a stable society.

History is on the side of those who wish to retain the historical institution of marriage as it has existed from the beginning.  It promotes a stable society by facilitating stable families (the current proclivity for easy divorce notwithstanding).  Societies that have stable families prosper.  A departure from the historical institution of marriage will retard civilization, not advance it.  Any new definition of marriage will lead to a chaotic situation.  Government will not have the means to meet all its obligations to all the new spouses created by this new law.  This reaches into many areas:  social security payments; disability; insurance; etc., etc.  It will open the proverbial Pandora's box and lead to many untended consequences.

I'm not a lawyer, an historian, or an orator, but I believe someone out there could stand before Congress and make a compelling argument for keeping the traditional institution of marriage intact--without even mentioning religion.

But I believe this will get worse before it gets better.  The "moral majority" will get pushed too far, and the backlash could be one of the catalysts that leads us down the road to the end of religious liberty.
Very good post, Wally.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #104 on: September 27, 2011, 02:44:17 PM »
Separation of church and state is becoming more and more of an issue today.  In the last Republican presidential debate, Michele Bachmann was asked about it. Her answer was fairly good. But, the heart of the matter must be brought out.  It is not good enough to only give half an answer. We must hear the truth that there is to be a wall of separation between church and state. The state is not to inject itself into our relationship with God. The first four commandments are out of bounds. We need to hear that being taught in the church and in government.
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colporteur

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #105 on: September 27, 2011, 04:28:35 PM »
Yes, it is fudging to say that to bring in a Sunday law under a secular front is not union of church and state. When it involves religious convictions and the commandments of God it is religious. It is really more than fudging it is outright violating the constitution not to mention the law of God.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #106 on: April 22, 2012, 09:35:54 PM »
We have commented elsewhere on the developments in the Republican primary elections. Rick Santorum a staunch Catholic has poured contempt upon the statement made by John F Kennedy regarding his loyalty to the US Constitution rather than the papacy. And, knowing this, the Evangelicals remained silent and some even backed him. Amazing, but a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2012, 08:14:22 PM »
In his acceptance speech at the Republican National Convention, Mitt Romney twice tonight promised to protect freedom of religion.  "I guarantee freedom of religion."
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Wally

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #108 on: August 31, 2012, 05:18:19 PM »
We mustn't forget that politicians will say anything to get elected:  "Read my lips; no new taxes."  ::)  When the people demand Sunday laws, no president (or Congress) will refuse.
So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants:  we have done that which was our duty to do.  Luke 17:10

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #109 on: August 31, 2012, 09:41:49 PM »
Yes, when the wind blows, some men will see it and go with it to protect their position. Our job is to be able to differentiate between men with character and men without it. There are men who will do what they believe to be right no matter what. Look at their past experience. We have seen many that are just as Brother Wally says. Are there any who will stand up for what is right?
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #110 on: September 14, 2012, 04:24:02 PM »
In the  minds of many, including some Christians, separation of church and state translates into liberty of conscience in a very broad manner.  But, this is often too broadly taught.  How so?

The laws of a government are to be moral laws. If there is no restriction placed upon people's behavior, then we have anarchy. Ffew would agree with not having any restrictions on liberty. Even libertarians will agree at some point there needs to be law that restricts the freedom of people. The best example is that we have laws to keep people from killing one another. Now comes the difficulty in placing the line where it belong in regards to not only separation of church and state, but even the laws that govern a church. 

Let's take another example. In church, it is understood that one may have liberty of conscience in their personal life, but when it comes to church membership, there will be some doctrinal matters that one must accept and obey, or else one will be removed from church membership. Therefore, even in a Protestant church there is restriction placed in individual behaviour that some would object to. The line is to be drawn based upon principle, not based upon feelings or human wisdom.
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Cop

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2012, 11:45:33 AM »
Quote
In church, it is understood that one may have liberty of conscience in their personal life, but when it comes to church membership, there will be some doctrinal matters that one must accept and obey, or else one will be removed from church membership.

As you know, my Brother, I agree with this statement fully, but when was the last time that you have heard of this taking place within the SDA Church? I personally do know of it happening since the late 70's.

I recently read of a Muslim iman saying to Christians in Egypt about the anti-Muslim movie that is in the news, "If you do not openly condemn it, you are condoning it!" Do we keep silent about open sin in our churches out of fear of appearing unloving. Are we condoning sin by our silence?

"The greatest want of the world is the want of men,—men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall."—Education, 57
My religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me....That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave."
— Stonewall Jackson

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2012, 01:19:41 PM »
Amen!!  It is sad to see that the voice of reproof has been silent for so long in the church. But, the call for revival and reformation is sounding though the church today. And, as I think of it, I am reminded that even though we did not hear it for twelve years, we did hear it in the preceding eight years. So much so that there was a hateful spirit developing in response. So God allowed the church to receive one who refused to call for revival. But, now, things have changed. You will be blessed to hear it more clearly now that you are back online with us.  Go to our homepage remnant-online.org and there you will see article after article revealing the change that is taking place.

So, getting back to separation of church and state, we see that there is need for moral laws being legislated by the state. Moral laws are those which are in harmony with God's laws. So, we may not say that God has no place in the laws of our land. That is not a correct understanding of the separation of church and state.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2015, 09:40:38 AM »
What is the result when church and state unite? We have an example in the dark ages when kings bowed down to popes and the state was used to punish those who did not follow church doctrine. The President of the United States made reference to the Inquisition last week when comparing ISIS to it. He and many other religious and secular leaders have not yet identified the real problem. The president ought to have been the first to point out that America does not allow the state to punish those who refuse to worship God according to what a church dictates. The United States does not participate in what Islam teaches, a church state religion. Where is the voice of freedom? Why is there silence in regards to the foundation of Islam being at odds with the freedoms American value so much? Has the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights been thrown under the bus?

How long before we hear the truth proclaimed about the rights of the individual to worship according to conscience?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Kaniela

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2015, 01:02:22 PM »
Where is the voice of freedom? Why is there silence in regards to the foundation of Islam being at odds with the freedoms American value so much? Has the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights been thrown under the bus?

How long before we hear the truth proclaimed about the rights of the individual to worship according to conscience?

   As far as this Country goes, we may never hear it as before when this Country's leaders understood and stood by its Constitution as you said of a politician:
We have commented elsewhere on the developments in the Republican primary elections. Rick Santorum a staunch Catholic has poured contempt upon the statement made by John F Kennedy regarding his loyalty to the US Constitution rather than the papacy. And, knowing this, the Evangelicals remained silent and some even backed him. Amazing, but a fulfillment of Bible prophecy.

   Yes it is an amazing fulfillment of Bible Prophecy. It is also known that some of the Judiciary's of the US Supreme Court are against Separation of Church and State.
   In light of the Three Angels Messages, we should at least be hearing it in our Churches.

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #115 on: March 14, 2015, 08:57:18 AM »
As we near the end, we know that the  issue of religious freedom will take center stage. The battle will be world-wide, but centered in the United States, the land of liberty. America was a Protestant nation as testified to by its tolerance of other religions. Liberty of conscience is not valued by many "other" religions. If we look at many Islamic nations we see that they persecute those who convert to another religion. This is anathema to Protestant America.

With the immigration to the United States of those who were not Protestant, there has been a lowering of the education  of the principles upon which America was founded. There is a strong hatred of the Constitution by some who would impose their worship upon all others. There is an attempt to remove free speech and to tear down the wall of separation between church and state. There is also a parallel movement to remove morality, Biblical truth, from the nation as witnessed by the Obama administration's success  in rejecting Bible morality and codifying immorality.

Fox news has published an article entitled America is not a "Christian" nation. It affords us an opportunity to better understand the battle we face which has now begun in earnest. The author of the article does not understand Bible truth, nor the Constitution of the United States. American citizen's rights  to discuss religion, including those that are opposed to first amendments rights, is seen as something evil in this article. He wrote "Anti-Muslim rhetoric has grown particularly loud, and has been heard in places as geographically and politically distant as California and North Dakota."  There is reason why there is a discussion about the religion of the Koran and the history of Islam. One only needs to consider how Islam conquered much of Arabia, Northern Africa, and portions of Europe. Americans have no desire to  become like Saudi Arabia or Iran. And, Muslims who want to live in the  U.S. are not at liberty  to instill a practice which attempts to overthrow the U.S. Constitution and implement a religion that would enslave citizens of the United States. All immigrants to the United States need to swear allegiance to the  Constitution or be denied citizenship. But, with the spread of immorality and the intense effort to overthrow the laws of the  land, we find that there is little concern for what immigrants believe or the character of those who cross over the U.S. border.

There is an article of a different nature that enlightens the ignorant on the true nature of the Separation of Church and State. It too affords us an opportunity to become better educated in regards to the battle before us. We already have been warned that we are not at liberty to speak against some religions that would attempt to remove our religious liberty. One of the most powerful leaders in the world recently gave us  reason for concern when he  said if a friend "says a swear word against my mother, then a punch awaits him." "One cannot provoke, one cannot insult other people's faith, one cannot make fun of faith." Islam, the Counterfeit Revealed

It is time that we, as a people, understand the issue that will bring persecution upon God's  church. We are granted a wonderful opportunity to teach the truth that America was founded as a Protestant nation. It is the  Protestant principle of liberty of conscience that enabled America to spread Bible truth and freedom around the world. Those days have ended and the United States of America is no longer a Protestant nation, but will become the tool that will now attempt  to bring the world in harmony with religious principles opposed to religious liberty.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #116 on: September 10, 2015, 09:05:10 AM »
In light of my last message, it must be seen in the context of some appointed US Supreme Court justices being anti-Constitution. God has given to man the ability to reason, to consider the circumstances in which we live. Some of the justices are not only anti-Constitution, but highly immoral. Some Seventh-day Adventists consider the decisions made by the Supreme Court to be the law of the land and to be obeyed no matter what. Well....that reveals a lack  of understanding both Bible and Seventh-day Adventist doctrine. It also reveals a lack of understanding of the US Constitution and the intent of the founding fathers to protect liberty and morality. America was a Protestant nation, not an atheist nation. A Protestant nation  allows for freedom of worship, but not freedom to dictate how one  will worship God. A Protestant  nation has moral laws. To legislate immorality was never the intent of the Constitution nor the founding fathers.Today, when a lady goes to jail rather than agree to the marriage of homosexuals, as it pertains to her elected job, she is considered a hero by some and a law breaker by others.  It is for us to understand what God wants from us, not what the state demands from us.

How many church members who live in America have considered what they will do when an immoral and defiant US Supreme Court allows what an immoral Congress legislates, that the sun day is sacred and one cannot work on that holy day?   Today, an immoral and defiant Court has ruled that a Congressional law defining marriage is contrary to the US Constitution. It is time that church members for their own sake understand the significance of what is transpiring before our eyes. It may be that  the County Clerk in Kentucky is not consecrated and following the leading of God, but I would not want to come to that conclusion  when she may be doing just what God would have me do if I were in her shoes. The Sunday is not the only issue that will be a religious matter revealing the fall of a nation and thus the approaching doom awaiting that nation and the nations of the world.

At  some  point, we need to understand things have changed. America is not the bright shining land of liberty it  once was. The  stone carved without hands will now shine brightly amid the moral decay of the nations of this world.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #117 on: September 29, 2015, 12:25:39 AM »
Yesterday, CNN's Jake Tapper attacked Dr. Ben Carson to the  point where Carson's campaign manager halted the interview. The subject was heated over Dr. Carson's explanation  that those who were unwilling to reject some of the major tenants of Islam ought not become the President of the United States. He said he did not think Islam was consistent  with the  US  Constitution.   Interview
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colporteur

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #118 on: September 29, 2015, 02:19:13 PM »
Do you notice more of a trend for people to become intolerant with those who stand up for morality ?  They want tolerance but only tolerance of immorality. When it comes to morality they are  intolerant even of verbal expression.
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Richard Myers

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Re: Separation of Church and State
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2015, 10:10:55 AM »
Yes, cp.  They are coming out on this Muslim question.  Last night a Russian "expert" who teaches at a couple of "prestigious" schools of "higher education" attacked Dr. Carson. He said that we might be having more terrorism in America if Carson keeps up with his position statement on Muslims. This came out of nowhere when he was being interviewed  on what Putin was up to. It was rather shocking to here this, but it illustrates exactly what you are saying, and how ignorant many of these who teach at so called institutions of "higher education".
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.