Author Topic: He Laid Down His Crown!  (Read 5348 times)

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Richard Myers

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« on: August 16, 2000, 07:24:00 AM »
The King of Kings laid down His crown and consented to take on the nature of a man!

What does this mean? Why would the King of Kings remove His crown and become one with us? Why was it necessary for the King to be made in the "likeness of sinful flesh" in the womb of a human being?

Amazing! Simply amazing! There must be a good answer for this great condescension. That Jesus would leave heaven where He had the adoration and worship of heaven to become a helpless baby with our nature after 4,000 years of sin and for His Father to allow Him to come to our world where Satan claimed dominion is a wonder.

Why this great sacrifice with its pain and risk?

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2000, 07:40:00 AM »
Hi Richard, how are you ?

Your words echo similiar words of a posting to me on another non-denomination christian forum a while back. I was being challenged to think though the possibility of another effectual means of atonement than what God offered us by sacrificing his one and only son. Yikes, I thought. That's tough theology thinking. I'm not all that trained up for such like. So I stared thinking with laying out the puzzle pieces...
1.) The created in the-image-of-God man goofed up.
2.) The ability to communicate with God was still available but quality of eternal life was gone. The process of death had begun. The condition of soul/body/mind death was inheritable.
3.) The repeat of sin threatened to get to be a habit. The communication with God dies off.
4.) The love for man out of the heart of God is indescribably great. The yearning for his joining with the heavenly trinity never ceased.
5.) Houston...we have a problem. That wasn't orginally coming from the Astronauts. It was said first xthousands of years ago in the heavenly triune counsel meeting about how to salvage the work of Satan among man.
6.) Law is law and it is unchangeable when coming from the Will of God. Fact is, no sin is allowed in any form to enter heaven and live eternally.
7.) How to get man in a condition that he may enter the heavenly gates legally was the problem.

Now here comes a theological unclearness for me. Why, may I ask, couldn't a word of forgiveness from the Lord be suffient for Adam and Eve to get them in the original sin free condition again ? Why didn't they get spiritually cleaned up right after having been found with the figleaves around them ? (The whole restoration condition isn't even now in the present time completely been finished. Only the atonement legal part of it all). They were given a promise of a Messiah to come which would be in his mission the solution for taking away the quilt as well as paying the debt of inbalance which laid before the Almighty's court of Justice. I can not explain why this debt had to be payed by an act of innocent free from sin-life. I suppose that the curse of sin affected the status of animals in such a way that they were tainted enough not to make them a perfect sacrifice. God sure does things in a perfect way. He could have sent an sinless Aliens from another planet to die for us perhaps. Then we would probably start worshiping our Alien as the object of our thankfulness and our affections would dim from God the father and we might grow into thinking him to be much too legalistic and hard. So with the possibility of Jesus failing He gave Him up to us in our sinful enviroment...exposed to the temptations of Lucifer to pull him away from loyality to God the father (what a horrible risiko!!!) . But the humbleness of the only begotten Son of God becoming Jesus showing the true character of God, as more over and above to be worshipped, has done that which not only solved the problem but keeps the redeemed steady in worship to the Only Real God of all creation. Another substitue for the salvation plan would have probably turned the worship away from God himself. ...IMO.

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."
Philipians 2:......" this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."  I praise HIM!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+~~~~~~~~  Jesus and the angels are coming ...Joan


M.A. Crawford

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2000, 05:05:00 PM »
As many Seventh-day Adventists already know from the writings of Ellen G. White, the plan of salvation was not an afterthought. God knew before He created man that he would yield to the tempter. As a result, a Supreme Council meeting of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost convened in Heaven before man was created (1 Peter 1:19, 20) where it was decided that Christ would take upon Himself sinful flesh and come to this earth to be born as a human being to save mankind and give it a second chance at eternal life.

IT WAS LOVE for all mankind that motivated Christ to lay aside His Omnipresence, and the glory, adoration, and worship of the Holy angels and come to this earth as a human being. IT WAS LOVE that moved Christ to endure the suffering, pain, and the shame of Calvary. IT WAS LOVE that caused Christ to die a vicarious death in order that man might have a right to the Tree of Life. IT WAS LOVE!!!!

"God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

M.A.      

M.A.

Joan Rügemer

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2000, 02:06:00 AM »
Hi there Br. Crawford...

See..there are a lot of nuggets of teachings I am not up on with the SOP. This trinity council meeting before the creation most certainly must have taken place. It stands to reason. That love was the motivation is still a wonder. It really is awful how twisted over time that mankind has slanderd the character of God by implying he was being vengeful from a loveless judgemental arbitary being.
Thanks for the posting.
Joan


Richard Myers

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2000, 02:54:00 PM »
Sister Joan, happy Sabbath!  :P

Isn't it wonderful to be able to discuss such earth shaking issues and to have the subject be Jesus Christ and Him crucified!

You asked a really good question and I was hoping someone would jump in and explain, but  it is such a burden on my heart that I cannot hold my peace any longer than two and a half days!  :) Brother Crawford addressed another concern and did so very well. God is so good to us, to share such understanding.

You said "Now here comes a theological unclearness for me. Why, may I ask, couldn't a word of forgiveness from the Lord be suffient for Adam and Eve to get them in the original sin free condition again ?"

First, Adam and Eve could not be forgiven until they were repentant. Think of them being in heaven "unchanged". They were granted temporal life, but they could not be forgiven and have eternal life until they were sorry for what they had done, the godly sorrow not to be repented of. This is not the repentance of Achin because they had lost Eden and eternal life. They had changed on the inside. Something had happened that caused them to continue to choose death rather than life. They had no ability to do good because it was good. They were now selfish. They thought of themselves rather than God and each other.

God could speak the word of forgiveness, but the question is how can a "clean thing" be brought out of an "unclean thing?"  The Bible  asks rhetorically "Who can bring a clean out of an unclean thing?" and then answers the question "not one." Job 14:4.

So we have a problem. God had a problem because He loves us. He was unwilling to let us perish, but rather understood a way to bring sinful man back into relationship with Him. We know the wages of sin is death and there had to be a death. It is law. But, this does not tell us how man could be "changed".

I ask the question "How is man saved?"  Is it not by grace? What is grace?  Grace is what changes the hard heart into a soft one.  Think about it. Can you understand why Jesus had to die, both from a legal standpoint and from a practical standpoint.

In His love and grace,      Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2000, 07:02:00 AM »
"When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son." Providence had directed the movements of nations, and the tide of human impulse and influence, until the world was ripe for the coming of the Deliverer. The nations were united under one government. One language was widely spoken, and was everywhere recognized as the language of literature. From all lands the Jews of the dispersion gathered to Jerusalem to the annual feasts. As these returned to the places of their sojourn, they could spread throughout the world the tidings of the Messiah's coming.

At this time the systems of heathenism were losing their hold upon the people. Men were weary of pageant and fable. They longed for a religion that could satisfy the heart. While the light of truth seemed to have departed from among men, there were souls who were looking for light, and who were filled with perplexity and sorrow. They were thirsting for a knowledge of the living God, for some assurance of a life beyond the grave.

Satan had succeeded in debasing the image of God in humanity. Jesus came to restore in man the inmage of his Maker. None but Jesus can fashion anew the character that been ruined by sin. He came to give us His character to make us beautiful with His own glory.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2000, 09:19:00 AM »
  thank you...I read what you wrote about the need of the wages of sin as death having to take place. I am still needing time to work through the rest of your words to get at the deeper means. I need time for what I read from you to germinate.

Apparently being sorry for the act wasn't enough. Those two in Eden had to repent of the act and could it be that they never repented of what they did? Just having a good scowlding and a proper spiritual talk from God didn't lead to repentance which could have moved God to forgiving them and making them righteous again ? Apparently not.

...Joan...


Richard Myers

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2000, 04:30:00 PM »
Sister Joan, I don't think it would have been very difficult to lead Adam to repentance for his sin.  As he put the knife to the throat of the innocent lamb, I believe with all my heart that he was indeed quite sorrowful for his own person sin. He knew that Jesus, the innocent of heaven would have to die because of his sin. He loved Jesus and understood what the killing of the lamb meant.

And I remember that there had been no death until Adam's sin.  How painful that must have been to him to realize he had caused it all.  
Can we accept the consequences of our own sin? Can we see Jesus suffering because of my sin? This is what leads to true repentance. We sorrow on account of what our sins have done to the Saviour. He suffered and died for us while we were yet sinners. Such a thought!

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan Rügemer

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He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2000, 08:18:00 AM »
Richard,

I was just three years member in the SDA German community as one of the local church members who, being the only vegetarian, in the 35 member SDA church group, told me why he was a non-meat eater. His SDA father killed all the chickens for the family meals from his own raised chickens. This brother G. never as a child saw him do this. As G. took on a chick once as his own pet, it grew into chicken adulthood and was really as a playmate for G. He cared for it's needs personally and worried over it. Then came a day where G. was walking to the shed and saw his father pick up the playmate chicken and go into the shed. Not suspecting anything bad, G. opened the door at that moment the hatchet was being used to cut the head off of the strangled necked of the dead playmate which the father had determined was old enough to eat. The emotional shock riveted in him for a lasting memory.

Brother G. says from that point on he couldn't eat meat again.

You spoke of the sensitive feeling of remorse Adam had for being responsible for the death of the first offer lamb he himself killed outside Eden's garden. It was probably told them by God it is a analogy shadow of a Messiah who was to come to be the proper vicarious offer of death to pay with the demand of death the wages of sin. They didn't know the name of the man was to be Jesus. Please forgive me for this next statement if it appears a bit hard but...........it annoyes me immensely that the whole waiting process took 4 thousand years to bring the Messiah on the scene. In God's eyes it wasn't a waste of time but in my puny understanding it sure gave way to allow sin to increase and run rampant. During that time much killing increased. Animal after animal. Innocent after innocent dumb animal offered. Then came the increase of eating meat. Though the 40 years in the wilderness of manna was God given time for meatless eating, they still had the ritual burnt offerings there in the desert when the tabernacle was erected. The Hebrews were instructed to kill women and children and animals as they were conquering the towns in the promised land of Canaan. Could it be that callousness grew over the sensitive heart of remorse that Adam then felt that should have continued in the hearts of the Hebrews as the offer sevice was inaugurated? Could it all have been some intellectual response to a legal acknowledgement of having sinned when they brought their sin offerings and laid their hands only in a ritual liturgical way on the head of the animal before it was cut-throated ? I still find no answer to my own heart when it is in a condition of remorse or repentance. I don't recognize the difference. The first is more guilty feeling and the second more show of a changed way of doing perhaps ?

To get to thinking about Jesus as being like as to an innocent lamb for slaughter takes time to soak in and reach the heart of compassionate feeling for Him which causes then a reaction within of remorse that leds to repentance. My experience was more along the line of God is absolute in having the copyright laws over my life and I am obligated to submit. He wants my submission to be done in freewill while loving him. My love for God the Creator grew as I got to see God in Jesus's biography. The legal side of atoning for the sin mess was accepted by me more or less mentally. But the 'why' of the way chosen for the plan of salvation has always been a bit fuzzy. I've presented above my theory as to 'why'. Still I need deeper insight.

It was very good to read the Job verse you gave to bring the thought around to the truth of impossibility among humans of making an unclean soul into a clean one, to have the correct substance for living eternal in Heaven with God. The love of God to man he created, wanted to have this problem solved and then, without breaking any established spiritual laws or it's demands, provided an answer.  Grace.  The sustance of the Divine which works the softening of the heart for the cleansing needed. Yes, that helps looking at it that way, Richard. But I am not completely arrived yet (though closer than before).

Am I to understand that without Grace from God working on the heart of a person that remorse or repentance is impossible ? Am I to understand that without remorse or repentance no one can be 'born again' a new creature in Christ ? Am I to understand that when a SDA church member can not say when this spiritual happening took place in their lives that he/she may be a candidate for salvation but isn't in the state of living out salvation ? They are not spiritual children of God? Just created fleshly children of God in the broad sense but the kingdom of God is not in them?

***Joan***


Richard Myers

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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2000, 07:02:00 AM »
Sister Joan, happy Sabbath!  :)

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned. You are getting to the heart of the matter. We may know of this plan of salvation intellectually, but until it reaches into the heart, the change will not occur. If we could see the "hatchet" coming down on our Lord's neck, then we would be as the young child who saw his pet chicken slain.  How could we participate in the killing of our Lord? We could not as long as the vision is fresh in our minds. This is why we are to pray without  ceasing and to feed upon Christ continually. We are carnal and it takes this "grace" continually to save us.  We can do no good thing without it, but with this love for Christ IMPLANTED in our hearts we can do all things.

We have been given a view of Christ that Adam did not have. We have seen the cross, the cruel cross. Adam saw the Lamb in type, we see the reality. We also have seen the results of sin for 6,000 years. We know a lot more than Adam did and will be judged accordingly.

It is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. As we behold Jesus and meditate upon His life, we shall become like Him. Our characters will be changed into His likeness. We will hate sin as we see what it did to Him.  The chicken and the lamb are the same story except one is the story of what my sins did to our God. There is a chapter in the bible that no Jew can explain and still reject Jesus. It is Isaiah 53. Read it in the light of our discussion and your heart will come closer to the One who gave all for you.  :)  Mine does each time I read it.

In His love and grace,    Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Donna H

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Re: He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 09:47:13 AM »

Now here comes a theological unclearness for me. Why, may I ask, couldn't a word of forgiveness from the Lord be suffient for Adam and Eve to get them in the original sin free condition again ?


Hello all, happy day-of-work,

In addition to what has already been offered, what about 'fullness of time' and the fact that sin did not just effect Adam and Eve?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world,

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam,

Romans 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one,

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Galatians 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son

Through their sin the whole world was changed, everything. Death now reigned, everything was subject to death, not just Adam and Eve, but every one born after them, the earth itself, the animals. Corruption was brought into the world. If Adam and Eve would have been forgiven and cleansed themselves, that would just have effected them, like now, each of us is individually judged and cleansed. It would not have guaranteed their children would be sinnless. ? Or the earth would be free from corruption. If Jesus had done His work then, would He have been able to save the world to come? Hmmm. Maybe sin needed to play itself out fully, like God says in the OT that the Isrealites were not to conquer certain cities (sorry, don't recall exactly where) because their sin was not yet full. We can't ever forget or leave out the Great Controversy and what God is doing with Satan, and His plan to abolish sin COMPLETELY. God can see our future. He knows how populated the world will be. He's looking after the whole world, even the earth herself. Maybe it's important not to seek an answer to this from a person centered view. It's about us, but it's not just about us. It's about the abolishment of sin and death, and the deceiver himself... and restoration of His holy name.

And the devil who deceived them was throne into the lake of fire and brimstone... Rev. 20:10
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. Rev. 20:14

Donna

Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

Donna H

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Re: He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 09:49:08 AM »
"When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son." Providence had directed the movements of nations, and the tide of human impulse and influence, until the world was ripe for the coming of the Deliverer. The nations were united under one government. One language was widely spoken, and was everywhere recognized as the language of literature. From all lands the Jews of the dispersion gathered to Jerusalem to the annual feasts. As these returned to the places of their sojourn, they could spread throughout the world the tidings of the Messiah's coming. <P>At this time the systems of heathenism were losing their hold upon the people. Men were weary of pageant and fable. They longed for a religion that could satisfy the heart. While the light of truth seemed to have departed from among men, there were souls who were looking for light, and who were filled with perplexity and sorrow. They were thirsting for a knowledge of the living God, for some assurance of a life beyond the grave. <P>Satan had succeeded in debasing the image of God in humanity. Jesus came to restore in man the inmage of his Maker. None but Jesus can fashion anew the character that been ruined by sin. He came to give us His character to make us beautiful with His own glory.

Sorry, Richard, I guess I just repeated alot of what you already said. I guess I missed that. Oops, I should pay better attention!

Donna
Faith is the living power that presses through every barrier, overrides all obstacles, and plants its banner in the heart of the enemy’s camp. 4T 163.3

Richard Myers

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Re: He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2010, 01:49:10 PM »
No, I don't think so. We are addressing two different points in time. You were looking immediately after sin, whereas Jesus waited until He could wait no longer.

Let's look at the question again. Why not just forgive Adam? Forgiving Adam would not change Adam, would it? I mean change him back to where he was before he fell? It is not good enough to forgive Adam and then leave him to fall again? And, how can one be forgiven if he is not repentant? And, how would one become truly repentant? Was Adam sorry he sinned after he was removed from the garden? So many questions! :)

I perceive, Sister Donna that you can work though this as you look to Him for your wisdom.  It will be a blessing as the lights continue to come on!!  :)  Being taught by God is so much better than being taught by mere mortals!!!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2012, 03:19:06 PM »

Let's look at the question again. Why not just forgive Adam? Forgiving Adam would not change Adam, would it? I mean change him back to where he was before he fell? It is not good enough to forgive Adam and then leave him to fall again? And, how can one be forgiven if he is not repentant? And, how would one become truly repentant? Was Adam sorry he sinned after he was removed from the garden? So many questions! :)

These questions are too important to not address.  I was hoping that another Bible student would address them.  But, we shall go ahead.  And, I want to make mention that this idea of Adam needing to be changed, not just forgiven has come up in our Sabbath School lesson this quarter.  It does no good to forgive Adam and leave him unchanged. It is God's purpose to change us, not just forgive us.

Let's look at my son.  Let's say he is four years old and bites  his brother.  Many times I have told him not to bite his brother.  He knows he is in trouble.  Do I want to forgive my son? Yes, I do. Will I forgive my son? It depends. What does it depend upon?  God's grace is there for all of us. But, does God forgive all of us? When does God forgive my sins? Do I have to be changed before God will forgive my sins?

So, I tell my son I forgive him even though he is not sorry. What will happen again? Yes, he will bite his brother again. Is there not some way to help my son learn to not bite his brother? Or are we forever going to continue in our sin?  Many say "I am sorry" then do the same thing all over again. Is this what Christianity is? No hope to love others? We continue hurting those we love and those we hate? That is not Christianity. That is not love. That is not why Jesus came to our dark planet, took our nature, and took our sins. He came to change as many as would come to Him wanting to be changed.

Yet, over and over again, we hear taught in Christian churches that God will save us in our sin. That we are justified before we confess all of our sins. If we are converted, then sin on Monday and do not repent until Friday, we do not lose our justification in between. That we have eternal life in our sin, while separated from God.

It is not good enough to forgive Adam and leave him sinning. God's grace has power to transform the character. God promises to give us new hearts, not just forgive us.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Peter L

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Re: He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2012, 03:52:48 AM »
It is good to contrast the Character of Christ with that of Satan.
Christ humbled himself
Philippians 2:5-8
(5)  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6)  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(7)  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
(8)  And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Christ who is God humbled Himself, now contrast this with Satan
Isaiah 14:13-14
(13)  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
(14)  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Satan tried to be like God while Christ who is God humbled Himself and became one with us.

Revelation 3:20
(20)  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Mimi

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Re: He Laid Down His Crown!
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2012, 07:27:19 AM »
Amen! When we allow ourselves to stop long enough to really think upon the fact that Jesus, the Son of God, left heaven to save sinners such as ourselves, it boggles the mind. What love that He should do this for us. As long as I live, I will marvel at that fact.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89