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Richard Myers

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COL.. Without a Wedding Garment
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2001, 07:22:00 AM »
Brother James and anyone who is still having problems with the need to obey the law of God and the power of God's grace to do so. I am provding the text from James 1-3 for the convenience of anyone who is reading. I think it necessary that Bible passages be read in context. James expresses very clearly the need of "works" to reveal true "saving" faith. Works do not save, works are an evidence that saving faith exists in the heart of the believer. Works reveal the "imparted" righteousness of Christ. Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. The thief spoke words that revealed his faith.

Brother James, I believe a thorough reading of the texts in James 1-3, coupled with a thorough reading of this whole thread will help us to come into agreement.

James 1-3
1:1  James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2  My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3  Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4  But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8  A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9  Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10  But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11  For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16  Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18  Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19  Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20  For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21  Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22  But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23  For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24  For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25  But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26  If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
2:1  My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2  For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3  And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4  Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
5  Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6  But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7  Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8  If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9  But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11  For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12  So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13  For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath showed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14  What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18  Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21  Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22  Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23  And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24  Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26  For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
3:1  My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
2  For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.
3  Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body.
4  Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.
5  Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!
6  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
7  For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:
8  But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
9  Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
10  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11  Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
12  Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
13  Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him show out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14  But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15  This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16  For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17  But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Joan

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COL.. Without a Wedding Garment
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »

Antinomiansim is being against the Law. The Law is the commandments of Jesus. We who are the followers of Jesus have His testimony and His commandments within us.

I thank God for the inspired teachings of James in his epistle. The fight against antinomiansim was needed even way back in his day like as well in ours.

In both cases the wrong attitude to the righteousness of God is the root of wrong thinking. Righteousness received by believing faith, gets perverted when we misuse that Grace of God as a license to sin. And that happens when we born again Christians hold the thought of trusting to that grace to cleanse our sins we do after conversion, by some sort of automatic washing by programmed default in us.

That leads to thinking we can sin and not get humble and repent again because we walk and live in Grace and all the matter of praying for forgiveness is not necessary anymore.

This is all coupled with the belief we are not under Law anymore...we are completely led by the Spirit...so any stumbling is just a weakness of the flesh pertaining to immaturity and never a sin like when we were living under the Law.

One gets in the mind-set over the years not to even think that one has sinned (when one has indeed sinned) as a believer. One gets to the point in daily living to pray for things but not to pray forgiveness of sins one commits as a Christian. There are those out there who are so sensitive to the Holy Spirit that their conscience is so flooded with the presence of the LORD that they are quick to recognize the temptation to sin and are instantly looking for the door to go through and they overcome in the strength of the Lord within them. Those ones are out there and are living such a victorious life. But I sense there are not a great bunch of them. But the rest of the multitude of true believers who do fall and sin are so sensitive that they are repentant and confess because the H.Spirit has shown them that they have trespassed over the borders of the Law.

We are never to use the Grace of God to sin. This is strongly taught by Paul in Romans 6:1. We can never know what sin is if we didn't have the commandments as a measuring rod.

Joan


James Saptenno

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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2001, 12:09:00 AM »
Brother Richard.

I got the impression that people thinks the commandments that we must keep is the moral law or the 10 Commandments. But James has said in his epistle that you quoted above, it is not the moral law to keep but love.

James 2:8 – “If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well.”

This is what he called “the perfect law of liberty.”

James 1:25 – “ But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.”

He continued with an advice, that if have respect to persons, we commit sin, because love does not show favoritism, all men is equal. By showing favoritism, a believer breaks the law of love. And James gave an illustration by using the moral law, it is not a sign at all that we must keep the moral law. What believers must keep is the law of liberty, or the royal law, which is love as a standard of living and judgment (verse 12).

James 2:7-12.
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

So verse 12 is not means for verse 10 & 11 to say that we must keep the 10 Cs, but for verse 8.

And since love is “fruit of the Spirit”, the “willing and the doing of God in us” or the imparted righteousness of Christ in a believer’s life that choose to live for God, we know then that there is nothing from us that could be accounted as a contribution in our keeping the law.  Because it is solely done by the Holy Spirit in us. What we have is faith in Christ, and our faith led us to a choice to live for God, just then the Holy Spirit can work in us, because it is no longer “I that live, but Christ that live in me.” This is what Paul means by “faith that works by love” (Galatians 5:6).

Love is the ‘deeds” of faith in the epistle of James, without “love” faith is dead and can not save the believer. Why? Because the believer has not the agape love of God in his heart but still a selfish love, a love to serve the flesh. And whomever live for the flesh, he will die (Romans 8:13) and will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:21).

And we can only have “love” to rule our heart if our life is controlled by the Spirit, as love is fruit of the Spirit. When we live according to the Spirit, the 10 Commandments means nothing to us, because there is no more “I” but “Christ.” I have no obligation or responsibility to keep the moral law any longer, but Christ in me. I no longer serve the written code (10 Cs), but I serve God in the Spirit that works in me (Romans 7:6). If “I” want to keep the 10 Cs, I take the control of my life from the Holy Spirit, as I put the law above me as a standard for living and judgment. I give no place for the Spirit to work in me, and the result is: my sinful passion will be aroused again by the present of the law and I will again live in the sinful nature (Romans 7:5).

And James 2:26 says “ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”

When we reject the Spirit to work in us by making the moral law as an obligation to keep, we will have the act of the flesh instead of fruit of the Spirit. We have faith without works, because works of faith is “love” and “love” is fruit of the Spirit. Fruit of the Spirit is not an external act such as keeping the 10 Commandments, but an internal change (please check Galatians 5:22,23). Love is the fulfillment of the law, love covers the law but keeping the law does not cover love.

And how can a believer commit sin, when love ruled his heart? But if “I” ruled my life, I live a sinful life. And this “I” will rule my life when I accept the law as a standard for living and judgment. That is why the law must go, comes to an end, in order not “I” that live but “Christ” that live in me.

In His love

James S.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2001, 11:11:00 PM »
Brother James, we now find you on the "evangelical" side, so we must now ask you which commandment in particular will you break? Is it just the forth we are at liberty to break and still retain eternal life, or may I kill my brother and still retain life? Brother James,  you have been here before, who has bewitched you that you would think it lawful to murder when the comandment says, "Thou shalt not kill"?

You miss the point in James, my brother. James says "ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Of course James understood that a man is not justified by works, but he believed that works is the fruit of saving faith. "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"  "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."  James 2:20, 26.

Brother James, I do believe it providential that your parents chose to name you James. Here we come face to face with your inheritance.  A name is important and now we must believe that the Book of James has particular importance for you. We pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you to see the wisdom in this book. You have been denying that the fruit of salvation is good works, yet here we have it in plain simple language. You would allow a man in open sin to be saved, yet James says no. The fruit of Christ within is obedience to the law of God. If we love our neighbor, we shall not kill him. It is all very simple and I do not say that you be accursed, but I do wish that those who teach such abominable heresy would be accursed. "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." We love you and are greatly distressed that some would enter into the fold and deceive such as you. I again, appreciate your kind ways and that we may discuss this situation in a loving manner. I pray that this parable of Christ's will help us to come into unity on the foundation of our faith.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

James Saptenno

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« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2001, 03:33:00 AM »
Brother Richard.

I don’t understand where did you get the impression that I allow believers to break the law of God even there is no written law to keep? As I believe that the spirit of the law is still binding, because love which is the spirit of the law ruled this universe. And by having love to rule our heart, how can we live in sin?

Quote
You would allow a man in open sin to be saved, yet James says no. The fruit of Christ within is obedience to the law of God. If we love our neighbor, we shall not kill him
Unquote.

Would you please clarify me, where did you get this impression?

Brother Richard, I believe that all of us are the sons of God by faith in Christ, and I believe that we will come to a unity of understanding of the word of God. So, please be patient in satisfying my desire to find the truth.

I saw that James in his epistle is focusing on “good works” as the deeds of faith. And this “good works” is love as fruit of the Spirit according to Paul, I didn’t see James gives us the ‘good works” is keeping the 10 Commandments. If it is so, please show me where it is.

In His love

James S.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2001, 06:57:00 AM »
Brother James, it is a blessing to be able to come into closer unity with you. Now, you say that a Christian will keep the law. Good, does that in include the Sabbath, or only the other nine?

Also,  since you seem to be hitting specifically at the the ten commandments, what was it that Jesus taught as the commandments?  He said He did not come to change the law and He said to keep His commandments. You say these are not the ten, yet He said to the rich young ruler in order to have eternal life he must keep the commmandments and there refered to the ten commandments.

I will stay with you my friend, but I see much inconsistency in what you say. Let us work it out.  It seems that we now agree that good works is the evidence of our faith, whereas before you denied this. Of course, the good works is keeping the law. We mean we will not kill, we will not steal, we will not sleep with our neighbor's spouse, we will keep the Sabbath holy. Yes, my brother, the robe of Christ's righteousness is His character "imparted" to us that we may have His Spirit and do His commandments.  :)

In His love and grace,           Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

James Saptenno

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« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2001, 04:12:00 AM »
Brother Richard.

I agree that “good works” James meant by, is the works of faith, or as Paul said, faith that works by love. This good works is an act of love, as when love ruled the heart of a believer, he will live in harmony with the law.

You said, my brother in Christ, that “the robe of Christ's righteousness is His character "imparted" to us that we may have His Spirit and do His commandments.” So, may I ask you, when The Spirit led your life, does He need a set of law or the 10 commandments as a patron or a tutor to recreate in you the likeness of God? When God does “His will and to do” in a believers life, does He need a law to guide Him, a law as a model or patron to recreate His likeness in this believers life? I believe my Brother Richard, God doesn’t need all this stuff. He will do and act as He pleases.

But when a believer wants to perform a “righteous” life before God, he needs a patron or a tutor, and that is the law. But when he come to this, he will only find failures and death.

My brother Richard, all the apostle of Christ didn’t define how to have love for keeping the commandments of God, only Paul defines that in his letters. According to Paul, love is fruit of the Spirit, not our will and doing. And when we have love, we live in harmony with the law. But to have fruit of the Spirit a believer must have his life led by the Spirit, just then God can works out “His will and to do”. And when this happen, does God need a set of law or any rules as a patron or tutor to perform His likeness in a believers heart and life? Once again, He doesn’t need it.

And brother Richard, when God is working to perform this, it is not “I” that live, but “Christ” that lived in me. There is no more “I” in me, I was dead. And when Christ take the control of my life, He doesn’t need any law to rule Him, there is no law for Him as a patron or tutor to perform His work in us.

The only difference between our view brother Richard is that you think you need a patron or a law to guide your life. According to me, that mean, you still want to have a part in controlling your own life, you must stand side by side with the Spirit to perform a likeness of God in your life. But my brother, the Scripture told us that it could only be done by the work of the Spirit alone. It is God who does the willing and the doing in us (Philippians 2:13). Forgive me if I’m wrong, but I got this impression from your replies.

I pray for all of you that we might came to the unity of the knowledge of the gospel in Christ.

In His love

James S.


James Saptenno

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« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2001, 04:17:00 AM »
Brother Richard.

You wrote:
Also, since you seem to be hitting specifically at the the ten commandments, what was it that Jesus taught as the commandments? He said He did not come to change the law and He said to keep His commandments. You say these are not the ten, yet He said to the rich young ruler in order to have eternal life he must keep the commmandments and there refered to the ten commandments.
Unquote.

My brother, Jesus gave the young man a direct answer to his question based on “what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life?” and His answer was not “ believe in Me” but “keep God’s commandments. And that is true, since God said, “ Keep my decrees and law, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the Lord.” – Leviticus 18:5. But even though the young man has perform all these things and he was faultless in keeping the law (same as Paul in Philippians 3:6), but it could not save him and give him life, he missed some thing. And Christ rebuked him by telling him to sell all his things and to give it to the poor, Christ points out the lack in his life, he has no love for his neighbors. His law keeping was based on fear to break it, on self-righteousness.

I could keep the law but it is not a sign that I have love in my heart. I keep it because I am afraid for the wages of sin. If I fear to break the law its mean I have no love, because love fears for nothing.

I John 4:16-18 “ And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the Day of Judgment, because in this world WE ARE LIKE HIM. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because FEAR HAS TO DO WITH PUNISHMENT. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.”

In His love

James S.


Richard Myers

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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2001, 02:53:00 PM »
Brother James, let us not get sidetracked. You know that we believe a man cannot keep the law, as required, unless he is born again and filled with the Spirit.

It is important that the law be seen to remain in effect for the Chrisitan, my brother, for many will take their eyes off of Christ and this can been be seen when the law is broken. "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." the Christian that does not know the Sabbath is the seventh day needs to learn of this commandment, then he will keep it. Also, there are Christians in some churches that worship statues, they also need to learn of the commandments that they will know how to act. In other words, my brother, if it were not for the statutes and commandments, how would we know how to act?  There is much to learn if we want to receive the blessings of God. Those who do not understand the fourth commandment lose a great blessing.

Let us look at what you said about the rich young ruler. The Bible says that if you offend in one point, you offend in all. The rich young ruler thought he kept the law of God, but he did not. He, like Saul, kept he law superficially, but they did not have the power of the Spirit to keep the spirituality of the law. With Jesus in their hearts, they could have kept the law. Saul gave his heart to Christ and became a law keeper, but the rich young ruler, did not. He had another God. He loved his riches more than he loved Jesus. He was selfish and his character was never changed.

Yes, Brother James, we must know of the law before we are expected to keep it. The same is not true of the Spirit. All of the fruits of the Spirit will be in the life of the true Christian, not one will be missing. The law will be kept by the true Christian to the extent it is known. When the light of the law comes to the true believer, he will keep it.

In His love and grace,     Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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COL.. Without a Wedding Garment
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »
Brother James, I see that we are coming closer to the truth.  You said " But all your actions were powered by the love of Christ   imparted in your heart, and people see no difference between your life and a life of  a law keeper. The difference in is the heart; your life is powered by the love of Christ..."

Amen!  This is all we have been saying. Notice your choice of the word "imparted". Yes, the character of Christ is "imparted" at the moment of conversion. Those that have given the whole heart to Christ, receive the robe of His righteousness which is His "imparted" righteousness. Jesus lives in the heart and the words spoken are an evidence of this. It is indeed the fruit of His Spirit. The law is indeed kept as it is known.

In His love and grace,       Richard

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: COL.. Without a Wedding Garment
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2017, 02:20:07 PM »

Question : those at the wedding feast that put on the wedding garment, did they put in on over their old clothes or did they replace their clothes with the garment ? Are we specifically given that information regarding the wedding ? This has probably been covered here somewhere on the forum but I have not seen it yet. The quarterly lesson picture of the man accepting the wedding garment is being discussed on FB and the claim is being made that the artist has said that the pic is not declaring righteousness by faith but merely the need for the quest to put on the garment. It is also claimed that the guests did not remove their old garments to receive the wedding garment. I would like to ferret that out some more through Inspiration. The picture shows the guest putting on the wedding garment covering his clothes.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

colporteur

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Re: COL.. Without a Wedding Garment
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2017, 02:45:48 PM »

Found it  ;D


  YI October 28, 1897 Have You the Wedding Garment?

II.
 It is by living faith in Christ as our personal Saviour that his righteousness is imputed to us. In the parable of the supper, when the king came in to examine the guests, he found a man who had not on the wedding garment. He had accepted the invitation to the marriage feast, but had cast contempt upon his host in NOT LAYING ASIDE HIS OWN GARMENT for the wedding robe provided for him. There are many who are represented by this man. They have accepted the invitation to the marriage supper, but have failed to comply with the conditions for entrance to the feast. They will not LAY ASIDE THE GARMENTS of their own self-righteousness, and put on the robe prepared for them at an infinite price." ( emphasis supplied in caps)
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Richard Myers

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Re: COL.. Without a Wedding Garment
« Reply #32 on: March 31, 2018, 05:23:21 PM »
Amen, cp. At conversion we receive both His imputed and imparted righteousness. If it were only imputed, that stands in place of our character, but imparted righteousness is transferred to us when the Holy Spirit comes into the heart.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.