Author Topic: Immunizations  (Read 34441 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2005, 07:52:00 AM »
Maybe just maybe, there needs to be a little investigation into what is being injected? If a doctor continues to violate simple health principles in his own life, maybe he is not the one to trust with one's health.

Maybe this is not a cut and dry matter of trusting the medical system with whatever they offer. They are very good at surgery, but when it comes to diabetes most fail the test of scientific objectivity. The same with heart disease and osteoporosis and high blood pressure and infectious disease which includes cancer.

We are coming to the days that the Bible speaks of when man is going to be given a test as to whether he will put his trust in the Word of God rather than the doctrines of man. We would like to separate out the doctors, but I am afraid this is not possible.

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WendyForsyth

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2005, 09:38:00 AM »
I completely agree Brother Richard that what is in the Smallpox vaccine is pure evil. I can assure you, I have researched it and read what I believe is the most revealing books on the subject.

However, that being said, the disease is even more evil and it has been far too long since any of us has seen a family member dying from scabs and crustaceous boils oozing together on the face, not from some nebulous bacterium of the disease but rather from the fact that they cannot open their eyes to see, mouth to take in food, or nose to breathe.

I have no doubt that God considers you to be one of His friends; otherwise He would not trust you with so many crosses, sufferings and humiliations. Crosses are God's means of drawing souls closer to Himself.

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Won Bae

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2005, 10:32:00 AM »
We should be open minded about vaccinnations. Not all the vaccnines arae good, at the same time one should not make a blanket statement as to all vaccines are bad. If one studies about the medical history, one would find out that the vaccinations did wonders to this disease ridden world. Just because some cases went bad, let's not blame the whole project.

Won


Michelle

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »
I agree with WendyF and Won Bae.  I have friends who will not vaccinate their children, yet at least one of these children has grown up and is now a missionary with her church somewhere in South America.  People who do not vaccinate depend on the "herd" immunity of others who have been.  Once they're outside the herd, they are in trouble!  

M


Richard Sherwin

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2005, 05:09:00 PM »
Sometimes you just have to choose the lessor of two evils. Like I said earlier, most times a bad vaccine is better than no vaccine.

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Clive Nevell

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2005, 06:58:00 PM »
I have mixed feelings about this issue. I had my shots for polio when I was young and for other diseases as well.

There are some things that would have just about wiped out humanity but for the vacinations.

But I have seen the other side of the coin as well.

In Brisbane there is a very well know rugby league football coach who has a son that had his vacinations when young and today he is not much better than a vegetable.

I know that does not happen to everyone. They were on TV a few years ago showing the father with his son on his shoulders at 25 years of age. Very sad to see as his story was very moving. The father (coach) had come from nothing and had promised his mother hen would not drink/smoke/gamble. He is well known now and still does not do any of those things.

Clive


Michelle

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2005, 04:41:00 AM »
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/08/national/08polio.html?th&emc=th
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

November 8, 2005
5 Cases of Polio in Amish Group Raise New Fears
By GARDINER HARRIS
LONG PRAIRIE, Minn. - Polio was pronounced dead in the Western Hemisphere years ago, after one of the most successful public health campaigns in history. But now it is stealing through a tiny Amish community here in central Minnesota, spreading from an 8-month-old girl to four children on two neighboring farms.

So far, no one has been crippled by the disease; only 1 in 200 cases of polio results in paralysis. But worried public health officials say it may be only a matter of time.

The story of how polio came to this dairy farming community of 24 families, with 19th-century ways that include a deep-rooted suspicion of vaccination, is both a medical whodunit and a cautionary tale, suggesting that eradicating polio may prove far harder than anyone thought, even in the developed world.

No one expects that the United States will be visited by the kind of outbreaks that recently flared up in Africa and Asia, frustrating the longstanding goal of eliminating polio for good by the end of this year. But the Long Prairie cases highlight a weakness in the worldwide campaign.

The 8-month-old Amish girl, whose name has been withheld by health officials, has an immune deficiency that makes her unable to rid her body of the virus.

How she contracted the virus remains a mystery. She may have been infected in a hospital by another immune-deficient patient who nursed it for years. A doctor or nurse may have served as a go-between. Or there may have been a chain of carriers in the Amish community. The virus is spread from stool to mouth, a surprisingly efficient form of transmission.

Regardless, the girl is now a wellspring for polio, a modern-day Typhoid Mary who can pass it along to others. Anyone who has not been vaccinated is vulnerable. And though vaccination rates in the United States are at historic highs, an increasing number of parents are resisting inoculations for their children, fearing that they may cause disorders like autism, a connection scientists have almost universally discounted.

So health authorities are keeping a watchful eye on the girl and her neighbors.

"If that child is a message in a bottle," said Bruce Aylward, coordinator of the global polio eradication initiative at the World Health Organization, "it has just washed up on shore."

The 24 families moved to this windswept stretch of prairie from Wisconsin about three years ago. An Amish community generally includes only as many families as can fit into one house for church services, and each community must come to a consensus on what to accept from modernity.

This one allows windshields for its horse buggies, kitchen cupboards that are attached to walls and some upholstered furniture - all somewhat unusual for the Amish, said Dr. Susan Rutten, a physician from nearby Sauk Centre who makes house calls in four Amish communities. Men can wear dark green shirts, not just navy blue and black.

The farms could have come straight out of children's books. There are ducks and chickens, cattle and hogs. Fence posts are columns of stones enclosed by wire mesh. Lacking electricity, the farms are remarkably quiet. At one, the children rarely yelled or even spoke in the presence of a stranger. The air smelled of turned earth, manure and wood smoke.

The threat of polio seemed remote here - until this summer. That was when the baby was hospitalized with an immune-system disorder.

As her care became increasingly complex, she was shuttled through four hospitals. At the third, she developed diarrhea. On Aug. 27, doctors sent a stool sample to the hospital's laboratory, which determined that the girl had an intestinal virus. In many states, nothing more would have been done.

But in Minnesota, hospitals send such samples to a sophisticated state laboratory. On Sept. 29, the tests matured. A laboratory supervisor called Dr. Harry Hull, the state epidemiologist, to say they had isolated a polio virus.

Dr. Hull was stunned. "I said, 'You have made a mistake,' " he recalled.

Tall and thin, with glasses and bushy eyebrows, Dr. Hull is one of the world's foremost polio experts. Before coming to Minnesota, he worked for 10 years in the World Health Organization's global polio eradication effort. In an interview, he scrawled circles and arrows on a sheet of paper as he described the search for the virus.

The state laboratory redid the tests. The results were identical. Then it sequenced the virus's genomic code. A supervisor plugged the code into a national genomic database, comparing it with the genes of a polio virus.

"Bingo," said Dr. Norman Crouch, the laboratory's director. "It was a 98 percent match. We knew we had nailed it."

The Minnesota laboratory sent the sample to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, which confirmed the results. Officials were immediately concerned about where the virus originated and where it might have spread.

Confirming the presence of polio in a city with even one infected person is not impossible, said Dr. Mark D. Sobsey, a professor of environmental microbiology at the University of North Carolina. The stool of an infected person contains so many viral particles that tests at a sewage treatment plant can reveal it. Such tests helped track outbreaks in the Gaza Strip and Haiti in recent years.

Since many Amish use outhouses, however, state officials geared up to go door to door. They unearthed a public health form explaining how to collect stool samples. The form had pictures of a flush toilet and a garbage can with a plastic liner - things foreign to many Amish communities. Officials changed the form.

Gary Wax, an epidemiologist for the Minnesota Department of Health, contacted the leader of the Amish community where the child lives and asked for his permission to seek stool samples from those in his community. The leader gave his blessing, Mr. Wax said.

"We really tried to do it in a respectful way rather than just barge right in there," Mr. Wax said.

Since the Amish have no phones, he could not call for appointments. He and his colleagues knocked on doors. They had been warned against speaking directly to Amish women without their husbands present, Mr. Wax said, and the men were "running all over the place, helping each other with harvesting and construction." So if the man was not at home, they left.

"We came back many times to some places," Mr. Wax said. After weeks of effort, just 5 of 24 families in the community agreed to cooperate. Three of the five, including the family of the 8-month-old, proved to have infected children.

"I would be surprised if we don't get a paralytic case someplace," Dr. Hull said.

In a neighboring community, a 38-year-old farmer who is also a sawyer agreed to speak with a reporter only if his name would not be used, saying Amish people avoided calling attention to themselves.

The farmer, who has seven children, explained that nothing in Amish law forbade vaccinations, but that many Amish believed that vaccines weakened the immune system. He added that as a result of the infections, he planned to have his children vaccinated against polio, measles, mumps and rubella, and that most of the families in his community were doing the same. "We'll get vaccinated if we feel it's necessary," he said. "But our definition of necessary may be very different from yours."

A further challenge for public health officials is that their surveillance efforts cannot be confined to a few remote farming communities.

"My mental image of the Amish was that they don't travel at all because they don't drive cars," Dr. Hull said. "That's not true."

The Amish commonly take buses and trains, and occasionally even planes. Families from the baby girl's community recently attended a wedding in Ontario, Canada, that health officials said drew more than 1,000 guests. Some have visited Wisconsin in recent weeks.

Polio experts have long feared that an immune-deficient person could cause an outbreak of paralytic polio. That is a particular hazard in poorer countries.

In much of the developing world, children are given an oral vaccine made of a live, nonparalytic polio virus. Two drops confer partial immunity, making mass vaccination campaigns achievable in poor countries. To become fully immunized, a child must be vaccinated several times. The vaccine causes an infection that usually lasts a few weeks. The infection can spread to others and immunize them, too.

But if the virus spreads too far among previously unvaccinated people, its genes will change and the virus will regain its ability to cripple and kill. Such a virus caused an outbreak of paralytic polio in Haiti and the Dominican Republic in 2000 and 2001, crippling 21. (The outbreaks in Africa and Asia began after many Nigerians refused vaccinations in 2003, suspecting they were a Western plot to sterilize Muslim girls.)

The United States and much of the developed world used live-virus vaccinations for decades, but switched in recent years to a dead virus that is injected. The dead virus does not cause an infection or paralysis.

In people with poor immune systems like the 8-month-old Amish child, the live polio vaccine can change to a paralytic form without being passed to anyone else, since such people can nurse a mutating virus for years.

In most of the world, such patients die quickly because of poor medical care. In the West, they can live for years, with a few of them shedding polio viruses all the while. Among experts, these patients are called "chronic excreters." That such a polio wellspring would be born among a largely unvaccinated population like the Amish, Dr. Hull said, was a "random unlucky event."

"It's a model of what might happen if we stop vaccinating too soon," he said.

The Amish girl remains hospitalized in strict isolation. Health officials will not say where. And they are still trying to figure out where she contracted the virus.

Genetic testing showed that the virus was almost identical to that of the oral polio vaccine given in much of the rest of the world but not in the United States. The slight changes to the virus from that of the vaccine suggested that it had been circulating for at least two years. The girl has never traveled abroad.

A fear is that such a person could unwittingly incubate a polio infection for a decade or more and then accidentally reintroduce it - years after experts have declared it eliminated from the world and vaccinations have stopped.

That prospect has long seemed remote, because such children are so rare, Dr. Aylward of the World Health Organization said. But an outbreak of paralytic disease in Minnesota would prove that it was more likely than many had believed, and it would demonstrate that work now under way to better understand the risks posed by chronic excreters would have to be intensified.

"Or we may need to revisit the strategy and time frame for stopping the use of the oral polio vaccine," Dr. Aylward said. "It's a tiny chance, but it's something we need to keep an eye on."


Bill Wennell

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2005, 06:52:00 AM »
I can understand why this can be a difficult issue with most people as it is something that is generally misunderstood. The history of vaccinations as shown that the disease has usually been on the decrease BEFORE the vaccinations begin yet we are lead to believe, by our government, that the decrease is BECAUSE of the vaccine. This generally is untrue.

Case in point is the bubonic plague which killed millions in Europe. Where did it come from and where did it go? Most people might be surprised to know that it is still considered to be endemic (naturally occurring) around Louisiana even today. Diseases have always come and gone, some linger for a while. This is natural (ie God's mercy). The belief that we need mans intervention in the area of illness is a tragedy. Illness has been, is, and will always be a natural consequence of what we do! Garbage does not create flies, it only attracts them. Likewise, we attract disease through unhealthful lifestyles, either by unclean living, unnatural eating, or failure to take proper care of ourselves. Therefore the belief that vaccines are essential, or at least a lesser evil, have no foundation on Bible principles.

Now when we look at how vaccines are created we get a world of evil. Mercury, animal cells, harmful or harsh chemicals; yet we say this is a necessary evil? Even that bad vaccines can be good? What esoteric knowledge is this based on? A lot of confidence in man's ability, but how much on God's? With a big government push on possible future vaccines (already happening in the Armed Services) one would wonder whether there is any connection between this idealogy and the government push for Sunday Laws!

There is a simple quote that covers this subject, "Drugs NEVER cure". While there has been a big push, even within the denomination, for a redefining of the word "drug" to only mean harsh chemicals used in the time of Ellen White, but not current medications of today, I will leave that to each persons determination. But I would take a good hard look at the facts.

Bill
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Richard Sherwin

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2005, 01:59:00 PM »
While Mrs. White did say that drugs never cure, she did not say they should never be used as some will have us believe. She said rarely should they be used. Vaccinations are, IMO, in the rarely used catagory. However as with the Amish case, a rarely used drug could have prevented polio among their community and the possibility of further spread.

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WendyForsyth

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2005, 04:31:00 PM »
I believe she chastised someone for not using the medical knowledge at hand for their child, allowing their child to die (was it quinine?), in the name of her words speaking against drug use.

I think that especially in the case of polio and a similar disease in severity, smallpox, we would be foolish and she would agree we would be foolish to not use the vaccines. Especially now that there are killed vaccines for polio.

I have no doubt that God considers you to be one of His friends; otherwise He would not trust you with so many crosses, sufferings and humiliations. Crosses are God's means of drawing souls closer to Himself.

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Richard Sherwin

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2005, 05:49:00 PM »
I think Mrs. White was a very practical person. She would have seen the benefit of certain modern drugs. In fact she was known to use coffee as medicine. As far as I know anti-biotic drugs do heal, and the have saved millions of lives. When you look at many modern drugs I have no doubt that God guided the hands of those who invented them. They go against everything Satan stands for.

Wendy I do believe it was quinine and the malady was malaria that was not treated.

RichardS

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Richard Myers

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2006, 10:52:00 AM »
The measles virus has been found in the guts of children with a form of autism, renewing fears over the safety of the measles, mumps and rubella triple vaccine. American researchers have revealed that 85 per cent of samples taken from autistic children with bowel disorders contain the virus. Telegraph
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Richard Sherwin

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2006, 11:31:00 AM »
There is no doubt that with vaccines there are some negetive side effects (risks). The question that has to be asked is, is the risk worse than the benefit?

Brother Sherwin

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Richard Myers

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2006, 08:40:00 AM »
A better question is who decides if your child is going take the risk? When those who refuse to change their lifestyle in order to protect their health, ought they be the ones to decide that your child will take such a risk? In other words, the world which rejects the light from heaven will attempt to force the conscience of those who wish to walk in the light that God has given when they theselves cause their own health to suffer.

When simple truth is rejected and the government refuses to test cows for BSE and says that it is safe to eat them, then why would you want them to decide what is safe? The next question comes as to the opinion of those in the church who reject the light sent through a prophet regarding the dangers of eating animal products. If this is not accepted then why would one believe there is danger in injecting animal products straight into the blood?

Brother Sherwin, I understand that there has always been a risk from vaccines. But, the risk has increased many fold since animals have become much more diseased when the vaccines are made from or with the use of animal products. Can you agree with this?

If problems such as autism are related to vaccines then do you want to vaccinate your child?

The system is broken. Over twenty years ago my children were vaccinated with a bad batch of vaccine. It was very sad. The drug company knew it was bad quite some time before my children were vaccinated. There was no mandatory recall or proceedure to get the vaccine back. My children were very sick. This is the world. This is where many in our church are wiling to place their faith rather than in God and His ways.

When we read our Bibles we read that ten thousand shall fall at thy side. At times I think we forget we have a God that loves us and is our protection. Yes, He has given us a set of laws that we are to follow and then He will help us. But, it is not the world system  of health that we are to follow. It is His set of laws. These are not accepted within the "culture" of Seventh-day Adventism. Go to many of our hospitals and you will see outright rejection of the light we have been given. They have patterned after the world. It is the result of the Laodicean condition.

This is a very serious subject and one in the end will require faith in God and His counsels that are rejected by the world.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Sherwin

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2006, 07:21:00 PM »
If because a person does not get a vaccine they might put others at risk. Is this OK as well? I don't have the answers. I personally don't know of anyone who was ever harmed by vaccines, well other than those on here. I do know that I'm thankful that my children never got mumps and measles like I had as a child. On the other hand I suffered no long term effects from those childhood illnesses. My guess is there are no good answers to these things. I do think that if a person feels it is sinful to get a vaccine then they should not be forced to, as the Amish. And likely they will be protected by the simple reason that others did get the vaccine and those illnesses can not get a foothold in the general population.

Brother Sherwin

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Richard Myers

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2006, 08:50:00 PM »
"If because a person does not get a vaccine they might put others at risk."  I appreciate that. But, as I asked before, who are you going to trust? The ones who reject the light from heaven? The ones who refuse to allow the testing of cattle for mad cow disease? The ones who tell us we need to eat meat, eggs, and milk?

When people are allowed into the U.S. without following the laws, it puts us all at risk from many quite serious diseases. So, is this important? A lot of disease is imported in the U.S. from third world countries. One of the quite serious problems is TB. It comes in from poor countries with immigrants. When there is no border control  for economic and political reasons we endanger our population. So, now do we force the population to be vaccinated? This is the thinking of the "bright ones" in positions of authority.

I think the argument that I have made is that it is foolish to inject animal products directly into the bloodstream. It is not health protecting, but will be a means of transmitting disease. We have fresh evidence of this with the recall of the flu vaccine because of the infectious nature of the product. It was made with animal products.

Seems we may trust more in modern science than we do in the light God has so graciously sent to the world through us. When the truth is brought to light regarding the cause of many diseases we then will be ashamed we did not help more in sharing the truth that we had been given as a people. Children are dying now because their parents thought they needed to drink milk to be healthy. What do you say to the mother who did not know, but we did know? One day we will see.

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Michelle

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2006, 11:33:00 PM »
There are those who are affected by the mercury in vaccines--some are very sensitive to this and get heavy metal poisoning (which, incidentally, is nearly identical to autism--my personal feeling based on some research and anecdotal evidence is that "autism" related to vaccines is really heavy metal poisoning, and autism related to genetics is different, though with very similar symptoms).  Does this mean none should get the vaccines?  I don't make this answer for anyone else, but for me, I've vaccinated my kids.  I knew it was likely we'd live abroad and I didn't want them to be unfairly compromised.  Do I vaccinate for flu?  Not generally.  Would I vaccinate for TB if there were such a vaccination?  Probably, if I were living in mainland China--I've known people with TB in mainland China, and I think it would be the prudent thing to do.  Would I vaccinate for H5N1?  No.  If that's going to start transmission from human to human, I think it will burn itself out rather rapidly (like Ebola does, or like the flu 100 years ago).  

As RichardS pointed out, polio has been nearly eradicated (though there have been problems in India getting it totally gone).  Would we wish polio on our children?  I wouldn't!

RichardM had mumps and measles as a child and suffered no ill consequences.  Was this the norm?  Did children die from these illnesses?  (I truly don't know much about them, as I've grown up in the era of the MMR.)

As one of my kids' doctors told me, when we compare the results of the disease with the results of the vaccines, we would choose the vaccines.  But we don't see the results of the diseases anymore, so all we see are the results of the vaccines.  What is an acceptable risk when we know the negatives very well becomes, in some people's minds, an unacceptable risk when the alternative is not readily apparant.

M


Richard Myers

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2008, 08:20:38 AM »
There are those who wish to force immunization of little girls with the HPV vaccine. They say it is safe.  Who shall we trust? HPV is a sexually transmitted disease that can cause cancer. 

In my research, I found this at the FDA site from Oct. 07:


Gardasil Adverse Events Include Deaths, Seizures, Judicial Watch Says

There have been 3,461 reports of adverse events, including a maximum of 11 deaths, in patients receiving Merck’s cervical cancer vaccine Gardasil, public interest group Judicial Watch said.

Since May, the group has found documents detailing 1,824 reports of adverse reactions to Gardasil (quadrivalent human papillomavirus [Types 6, 11, 16, 18] recombinant vaccine), including eight deaths. Before May, Judicial Watch had obtained 1,637 adverse event reports. The group received the data from the FDA through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request.

Of the 1,824 adverse events reported between May 10 and Sept. 7, 347 were serious reactions including paralysis, Bell’s palsy, Guillain-Barre syndrome and seizures, according to the group.

Thirty-three out of 77 pregnant women who received the vaccine experienced side effects, including spontaneous abortion and fetal abnormalities, Judicial Watch added.

“In light of this information, it is disturbing that state and local governments might mandate in any way this vaccine for young girls,” Judicial Watch President Tom Fitton said.
  source

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Mimi

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2008, 08:30:08 AM »
The television ad campaigns ("One Less") for this vaccine have been pulled. 
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Richard Myers

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Re: Immunizations
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2008, 09:35:05 AM »
The Australian Vaccination Network (AVN), a national non-profit health lobby group which which has received approval from ADRAC (the Adverse Drug Reactions Advisory Committee) to report vaccine reactions on behalf of individuals, is not surprised at the release of this information. Meryl Dorey, National President of the AVN, has said for the last 12 months that from the experience of the AVN, Gardasil is the most dangerous vaccine released to date. "We have received more reaction reports from Gardasil than from any other vaccine over the very short space of time since it was released.".

According to information obtained by Channel 7 under a Freedom of Information claim, 681 reactions to Gardasil were reported to ADRAC as of January 30, 2008. Of these reported reactions, more than one-third had not yet recovered. (Please see summary table below - full information available by contacting the AVN)
source
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.