Author Topic: Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?  (Read 30878 times)

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Liane H

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2005, 09:10:00 PM »
Dr Agatha Thrash states in her book Nutrition for Vegetarians that there are some foods that do have small amounts of B-12. Wheat, soybeans, various common green olives, fruits, tomatoes, cabbage, celery, kale, broccoli and leeks. Seedweed and alfalfa. She states it is difficult to avoid B-12 intake.

Further source of B-12 is bacterial growth in the mouth, around the teeth and gums, nasopharynx, the tonsils and base of the tongue and the upper bronchial tree. Up to 0.5 micrograms daily can be obtained from this source. Low protein intake further reduces the need for B-12.

Also, she states that chewing properly, leaving plenty of time between meals and not eating large varieties of food at any one meal are important for the apsorption of B-12.

In the Newstart book it is stated of B-12: B-12 is manufactured by bacteria and certain algae. In needs to be in the food, combined in the mouth with a chemical, and then exchanged for an "intrinsic factor" from the stomach so that it can be absorbed in the last 6 to 8 feed of the small intestine. A high protein or low fat diet demands more B-12. It states for adults that 3 micrograms is required. It states recommend 50-500 mcg chewed in food once a week.

Liane, the Zoo Mama  

[This message has been edited by liane (edited 09-29-2005).]

Liane, the Zoo Mama
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Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2005, 01:42:00 AM »
Apparently high homocysteines go with low B12.

Interesting as high homocysteines in some cases indicate that there maybe problems with the heart.

Check this link out.

http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/homocysteine.html

"Caution: Elevated homocysteine levels can be caused by vitamin B12 deficiency due to impaired absorption of B12 caused by gastric atrophy (damage to the lining of the stomach). B12 deficiency leads to anemia and, if not corrected in time, will permanently damage the nervous system. Folic acid supplements will correct the anemia (which can serve as a warning sign before nerve damage develops), but they do not prevent the damage. For this reason, people over 50 who take folic acid supplements should also take at least 25 micrograms of vitamin B12 per day, a dose large enough to enable adequate amounts to be absorbed. Dr. Herbert believes that everyone over age 50 should take B12 supplements anyway, because gastric atrophy is common as people age. Products containing 100 mcg per pill are readily available." (Taken from the above link)

Clive


Richard Myers

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2005, 04:48:00 PM »
Here we have a very important discovery that helps us better understand why some may suffer from what appears to be a b12 deficiency. "Elevated homocysteine levels can be caused by vitamin B12 deficiency due to impaired absorption of B12 caused by gastric atrophy (damage to the lining of the stomach.)"

What is the solution to the problem? If we were to study the light God has given to us as a people we would quickly understand what causes damage to the lining of the stomach. God would have us deal with the underlying problem which usually means self-control.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2005, 11:23:00 AM »
Hi,

Bill made a point earlier on which we should not miss

"By the way, set B12 levels may be set too high as they are based on a majority level of which the majority are meat/dairy eaters, not "normal" levels."

------------------

With the levels, we are dealing with research based uround benchmarking from general population studies of meat eaters.  It is similar with Iron deficiencies. For us Caribbean people we seem to always be lower in the range when tested which would cause us to use more Iron based upon medical advice when in North America. We also need to better understand the critical balance between our nutrients. As also stated previously, high protein intake also lowers the B-12 absorption as it does with Calcium.

Again a quote from an earlier post "We should point out that B-12 deficiency is a very rare disorder, and the overwhelming majority of cases occur in non-vegetarians."

With lower protein intake and protein intake of a food based variety, vegetarians have been known to have better absorption of nutrients than meat eaters. To me this says that a small amount will go a long way, faster.

B-12 deficiency is the only case against vegetarians that for some unknown reason seems to stay around and also unfortunately the church is scared of being branded for upholding the Lords directive.

B-12 like other nutrients is needed in minute quantities. Why is there not a fuss about other micronutrients that we lack?

The bottom line is that we are all concerned about our status of health and when confronted by the Doctor that our B-12 is low, we have no way to refute it by quoting supporting evidence in terms of quantity, that the level is correct based upon a study of vegetarians.

This thread has a lot of information in the earlier posts.

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Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2005, 03:35:00 AM »
I do know of some that have a lack of vitamin B12 and when it is low and I am not sure of just how low it can go but it can get to the point of being life threatening.

When that happens a person may need to have injections.

An Adventist scientist from the Sydney Adventist Hospital spoke at our Camp for South Queensland this year on B12.

He said that 50% of vegetarians, 90% of vegans, 50% of all people over the age on 65 were lacking in vitamin B12.

He also said the minimum requiremnet has been set too low. At present it is around 220 and he said it should be closer to 250 or 260.

Lack of B12 usually goes with high homocysteines, which maybe an indicator having problems with circulation and having a Cardiovascular Risk.


Clive


Richard Myers

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2005, 07:00:00 AM »
For some who not be aware, eating baking soda or powder causes damage to the lining of the stomach. Even baking powder without aluminum causes this damage. Seems from reading through this topic that rather than saying strict vegetarians (vegans) suffer from low b12, it would be more appropriate to say that those who eat cakes, cookies, and crackers made with baking soda or powder are more likely to have a b12 deficiency. Ask your Seventh-day Adventists health leaders to point this out. The solution to our health problems is to walk in the light of health reform.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2005, 11:07:00 AM »
B-12 is associated with baceria presence, hence the reason it is available n some parts of the digestive tract. Therefore the environment must support a good PH for development, maintenance and balance of both our "friendly" and un-friendly" bacteria types. Could this be why baking soda is harmful as well?
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Richard Myers

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #47 on: November 18, 2005, 05:43:00 PM »
Could be Brother Curt. I as recall the only explanation given to us as a people was that the lining of the stomach is destroyed by baking soda. Why it is so, ought to have been revealed by our medical researchers long ago. Knowing how baking soda reacts in solution could very well disturb the natural balances to the point of internal injury. Then, what would have been an acceptable level of b12 cannot be assimilated.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2005, 06:03:00 AM »
Dr. Hokin, like other Doctors are not being fair to Vegatarians by performing a study among healthy vegetarians and Vegans to see what their averages are and also othe relationship of other related blood constituents as well.
Secondly, when this is determined, they should also be checked for the "signs" of B12 deficiency.

He said :
"50% of vegetarians, 90% of vegans, 50% of all people over the age on 65 were lacking in vitamin B12."
Now the question to be asked of him is. Were the persons over 65 Vegetarians, Vegans or meat eaters. Seems like something is missing here.

Normal range of B12 he also said was too low and he recommended a low range 25% higher than the standard.

Normal Range (Conventional Units) : 200-1000

Now, Bill said, and truly stated : Vegetarians should get their B12 from the same source that other vegetarian (realy vegan) animals get theirs.

While our B-12 may be lower than the norm, our Cholesterol levels are remarkably lower as well.

So, the conclusion, don't be vegetarians to have much much higher B-12 levels in the blood(not necessarily absorbed) and die younger of High Cholesterol.

[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 11-19-2005).]

FAITH - As God's blessed sons & daughters we are to attempt the impossible to the extent that we will fail unless God steps in.   Keep the faith

Richard Myers

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2005, 02:00:00 PM »
It is a "spiritual" battle. When we study God's Word and find that man was created a strict vegetarian, it becomes a matter of faith, not science. But, when science is correctly understood, both the religious and the scientific agree. Few today believe the Bible more than the doctor. B12 is a ram to scare people. Satan uses it to call God's true people fanatical.

Some of God's people may have a b12 deficiency, but they must look for the reason. It is not because they did not eat animal products. The explanation that science gives in this topic is a very good one. Cease to injure the lining of your stomach. God provided the information as to how you can take care of your stomach. Study the light God has given rather than listening to men who reject the plain Word of truth.

If you are interested in your health and the health of your children then read what God has said about the real dangers regarding diet. Rather than eating animal products, it is better to understand the very real risk associated with the eating of diseased animals and their products. How long have animals been so diseased that we ought to have ceased eating them? Over a hundred years ago. How long has it been since their eggs and milk have been dangerous? Well, we were told at the same time, over a hundred years ago, that "soon" we would have to give up all foods that come from animals because disease was increasing in them rapidly.

One has to wonder why the great emphasis on b12 and the neglect to consider and teach the very real danger.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

WendyForsyth

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2005, 11:40:00 PM »
It seems to me if our Hospitals teach that we are greatly lacking and in danger from the lack of B12, then perhaps they may have a greater excuse for not teaching the Health Message, and for bringing in meat eating as well.
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Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2005, 12:36:00 PM »
I was at the meeting that Dr Hokin took and in no way was he suggesting that we eat meat to get our B12.

The study that was done concerning over 65 having a lack of B12 was not restricted to SDA's.

If my memory is correct it was done in nursing homes in Sydney.

I do not think we should be too concerned about finding out that if we do not eat animal products then there is a very good chance that we will be lacking B12.

The best way is just go and have a check. It is only a simple blood test.

I went in and 3 months ago my B12 was 207, last week it had gone up to 330. All I did was to take a B12 suppliment that was bought in the local supermarket.

Dr Hokin told us that there is only a few suppliments that improve your B12, the rest go through without any help to you.

I was concerned that B12 was not being absorbed by my sysstem but now from the tests that I have had that is no longer a concern to me.

I also had the young kids done and they are fine.

Clive


Michelle

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2005, 09:04:00 PM »
I have a friend whose body wont' assimilate B12, so she gets pernicious anemia.  She's not a total vegetarian, but has to be very careful to "listen to her body" because she has had to be under medical attention for long amounts of time because of this.  Don't know how widespread this is . . . .

M


Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #53 on: November 30, 2005, 02:20:00 AM »
Michelle

Don't know for sure just how wides spread that problem is but have heard of others who have the same problem.

Now if my memory serves me correctly EGW gave advice to a person who probably had the same problem.

Her advice at the time was to use raw eggs and pure grape juice.

Apparently there is small amounts of B12 in eggs.

As long as the egg is not fried it does not do the same amount of damage that fried eggs do. Somehow when they are fried it changes the structure of the yolk and it becomes deadly to a persons blood structure.

If eggs are going to be used they should be poached or boiled. In the case that EGW was working with she said to have them raw which would be even better.

Amazing to think she was able to give this medical information to a very sick Adventist, who made a remarkable recovery many years before anyone even knew about B12.

Clive


Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2005, 02:25:00 AM »
This information about raw eggs and grape juice was not too hard to finf. Here it is.

Selected Messages Book 2, page 303, paragraph 1

Chapter Title: Ellen G. White's Use of Remedial Agencies

Grape Juice and Eggs.--I have received light that you are injuring your body by a poverty-stricken diet. . . . It is the lack of suitable food that has caused you to suffer so keenly. You have not taken the food essential to nourish your frail physical strength. You must not deny yourself of good, wholesome food.... Get eggs of healthy fowls. Use these eggs cooked or raw. Drop them uncooked into the best unfermented wine you can find. This will supply that which is necessary to your system. . . . Eggs contain properties which are remedial agencies in counteracting poisons.-- Counsels on Diet and Foods, pp. 203, 204 (To Dr. D. H. Kress, 1901).

Note the first few words of this paragraph. EGW received light on this subject. To me that means God gave it to her.

Clive


Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2005, 02:30:00 AM »
Manuscript Releases Volume Three, page 321, paragraph 3

Chapter Title: Materials Used in Principles of True Science

Eggs, Used with Unfermented Wine .--I dreamed of having the care of a child that was weak, and seemed unable to rally. I thought the same physician stood by the cradle, and said, 'Have you any wine in the house? Beat up a raw egg, and give it to the child with grape wine [i.e., the

322
unfermented juice of the grape], three times each day. He will rally.'--Letter 112a, 1897

Again we see that EGW says to use raw egg with grape juice.

Clive


Michelle

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2005, 04:55:00 AM »
Ugh--pardon me while I gag!  I know people who eat raw eggs, but I honestly don't think I could get it down.

M


Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2005, 09:49:00 AM »
Michelle

When a person is desparate they do many things they would not normally be able to do.

I have to agree I think it would probably be a real challenge.

But it makes sense, God showed to her that this is what would heal this man who had gone overboard on diet.

B12 had not been discovered and all EGW could really do was to say to use raw eggs and grape juice to fix this man's health up.

Clive


Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2005, 12:31:00 PM »
Hi,

Curt here after a LONG absence. My mother's mid wife gave her eggs and grape juice when she was having me. The older folks knew about it and used this "tonic" as a blood builder. Grape Juice helps iron. The egg has lecithin which is destroyed by heat so the raw egg is better. I suspect that eggs may help build the friendly bacteria but I am not 100% sure of this.

Anyway, after two VERY stressful years in Jordan I am now relocated in Jamaica. We arrived here two days ago to start on another job and begin hunting for a house tomorrow. Since my pace of work has slowed down tremendously this year I decided to go to my Doctor in Amman and  get a complete physical before travelling. She is a very knowledgable and thorough physician. Also one who supports us in our dietary choice and wish to not have certain types of drugs/medication. She would recommend alternative medications to give the same result, then leave the decision to us.

When I last wrote to you I got the results of my blood test and wanted to speak with her first before I shared my report here.
Blood works are all fine, cholesterol is VERY VERY low, iron is borderline but she was not concerned. Hepatitis ABC are negative. Colonoscopy showed a healthy colon and ultra sound showed a clinicical specimen of the the pancreas and kidney, She said it was in perfect shape. However, she said I was not drinking enough water and showed me on the ultra sound the kidney and pancreas. She also made the same comment when she looked at my colon some time before. I have been guzzling over the previous month to make up for the dry climate but apparently it was not enough.

However, my B12 was 78 and for this she was concerned. I was not feeling the usual symptoms of B12 deficiency. In discussion with her she said that to assist the B12 there needs to be foods like fish (the highest source), fruits, nuts, seeds. She suspected that it was as a result of my lack of proper daily nutrition (skipping meals) and stress. It was the  long period of 14-16 hour days that did it I think. Like the Ben Carson experience without the Big Macs. I was also low on Vit C from fruits (my observation). Stress will quickly deplete one's B12 and Vitamin C.
I have other herbal based sources of B12 which I have taken in the past. Anyway I am now under observation. I am taking a few shots of B12 followed by oral B12/Coenzyme taken daily for a month then follow up tests to see levels as well as to check for absorbtion.

What I can tell you is after I took the B12 shots I began feeling the symptoms of B12 deficiency now that the levels are increasing.

Since there is no other measure/reference than what we have from research (though it is an average across a meat eating sample of population) I will have to try and stay within some fair value within the range. I still would not turn to Meat and Fish.

As for eggs and grape juice, I share Michelle's feelings on it but will try it. My mom used it and we tasted it, it may smell a bit fresh so she put a piece of lemmon skin in the blender when she made it to cut the smell and it worked a charm.

Hope this information helps you.

Curt

FAITH - As God's blessed sons & daughters we are to attempt the impossible to the extent that we will fail unless God steps in.   Keep the faith

Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2006, 10:38:00 AM »
Curt

I would be really interested if you could keep us updated on how you respond to what you are doing to help your lack of B12.

A level of 78 seems very low, I am wondering if we are using the same same type of units as you are as mine was 207 and the Dr thought it low enough to suggest I take suppliments to correct it.

They helped because after three months the test showed it was back to 330. Still taking them and will wait for six months before I take another test.

Can you tell me if the Dr there tested you for Homocysteines?

Apparently lack of B12 goes with high Homocysteines.

Our Dr's out here generally do not suggest a blood test for that. The latest info on Homocysteines indicate that a high level is dangerous and is another indicator like colesterasl is. Have you heard about that?

Clive