Author Topic: Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?  (Read 30234 times)

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Liane H

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2000, 12:38:00 PM »
I was always told to stay away from sugar when I was sick.  Now I understand why. It kills the good bacteria that you need to fight the bad virus.

We know that antibiotics destroys the good bacteria as well as the bad.

It all makes sense to me now.

Liane

Liane, the Zoo Mama
Romans 8:19   For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2000, 10:07:00 PM »
I had a bit of a chuckle reading the article above. Adam really had it better than we, since he got his B-12 from not washing his food ;-}.

Thought provoking article though.

By the way,
thanks for all the information and references in this thread. I summarized the points and references and emailed them to my friend. He and his wife have been going to the ABC to buy their non-meat products and I suggested they get Dr. Thrash's book there also. He made a joke with me some time ago saying that I now have him going to our store and next I will be looking to baptize him ;-}. I just laughed with him.

FAITH - As God's blessed sons & daughters we are to attempt the impossible to the extent that we will fail unless God steps in.   Keep the faith

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2002, 05:14:00 PM »
To many supplementation seems like a good option just to be on the safe side of adequate nutrition. However, recent lab results prove that some of the products out there have TOO MUCH Vit B.

Tuesday January 8 1:37 PM ET
Vitamin B Supplements Exceed Safe Levels: Report
NEW YORK (Reuters Health) - Some vitamin B supplements may contain more than the recommended amount of the nutrients, according to a new report by ConsumerLab.com.

ConsumerLab.com, a commercial testing company in White Plains, New York, conducted the study. For a fee, the company licenses its flask-shaped ``Seal of Approved Quality'' to companies whose products pass testing.

``Consumers should be aware that more than 40% of the products that we evaluated exceeded levels at which they are known to be safely tolerated--some having more than 10 times the upper limit,'' said Dr. Tod Cooperman, ConsumerLab.com's president, in a prepared statement from the company.

ConsumerLab.com tested 21 B vitamin supplement products. Some contained a single dose of a particular B vitamin while others included several. The eight B vitamins are thiamine (B-1), riboflavin (B-2), niacin (B-3), pantothenic acid (B-5), pyridoxine (B-6), cyanocobalamin (B-12), folic acid (folate) and biotin.

Nine of the 21 products exceeded established Tolerable Upper Intake Levels (ULs) for adults--''above which there is increased risk for side effects with regular use,'' according to the report.

ULs are established by the Institute of Medicine (news - web sites) of the National Academies.

The report notes that three of the niacin-only products exceeded the UL for niacin as did six of the seven B complex products. The UL for niacin is 35 milligrams (mg), while these products included recommended daily doses ranging from 400 mg to 510 mg.

``There may be good medical reasons for exceeding these levels, but there may also be significant side effects,'' Cooperman warns. ``People interested in using high doses of B vitamins should consult with a healthcare professional.''

In addition to those findings, ConsumerLab.com reports that one of the B complex products contained amounts of the nutrients lower than what was stated on the label.

The findings underscore the fact that vitamin supplements may benefit from tighter regulation.

Vitamin B dietary supplements are becoming increasingly popular due to last year's decision by the US Food and Drug Administration (news - web sites) to allow manufacturers to tout recent findings about the ability of B vitamins to reduce vascular disease risk.

FAITH - As God's blessed sons & daughters we are to attempt the impossible to the extent that we will fail unless God steps in.   Keep the faith

Dora

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2002, 08:36:00 PM »
Just wanted to thank everyone for the contributions on here. I have often wondered about vitamin B12, because my granddaughter has never tasted meat or milk.  She is now
almost 14, and she seems very healthy.
I can also verify that it is a myth that it takes meat and meat products for "brain food."  When the last testing was done in MI this past fall, she tested at the college level in all classes except math.  On this subject, she tested at the grade level she
is in.

I will be watching this site for more information. I am a vegan, 69 years of age, in good health, and want to stay that way.
Thank you again.

Dora

Dora

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2002, 03:31:00 PM »
I am having a personal experience with my mom at this time. She became increasingly fearful feeling that people were after her and eventaully talking very erratically and without a sense of judgement. Each sound explodes in her head as a very loud noise, each thought is so loud to her it is a voice speaking to her. We went through the first round of analysis and assessments by her GP and now a Neurologists to determine a possible cause. She shows no signs of physical or brain abnormality but the Neurologists recommended a shot of B-12 IM since her blood tests showed her B-12 low. Her GP reviewed all her previous blood works from previous years and saw a consistantly low to mid range level of B-12. Low for the most part. The increases seemed to indicate that she probably was getting it in her diet but not enough.

Last Friday she received a large dose of injected B-12. In less than three hours I began seeing small changes, She became first calmer, then her chat was more and more structured. Later that evening she began more complex discourses and her recall of detail increased significantly over the prevoius weeks experience. We have struggled with her for the past few months to convince her that she was not under attack by anyone and that her experience was more in her head than real. I was finally able to get her to sit down and listen to me helping her to understand her past situation, present condition and layout a possible plan to get her back on her feet again and off the Respiradone which she was given one week ago. This was now possible following the B-12 shot. The last time her vit B-12 showed high it was following a program of supplementation I gave to her because she was difficult at keeping to a broad diet. Her situation was aggravated by having a job that had her up at 4:00 each morning ready to be icked up by 5:30 each morning. Going to bed after 11:00 pm each night meant only five (5) hours or less sleep per night for some years. Such stress (or any prolonged stress)would also deplete your store of Vit B-12

I have noticed that it is harder for older people to keep on a good program if they were not in the habbit of doing so and this could be the cause of many illnesses.

She is now at my home, off the respiradone, using a herbal sleep formula called Sleep+ and getting her meals.

I posted this personal account to emphasize that while there is no proof that being a vegetarian means you are not getting B-12 in your diet, it also must be emphasized that attention must be given to your diet of fruits, nuts, grains, seeds and vegetables in as varied a combination of foods as possible. In addition to this, as you get older the sleep pattern appears to change and it becomes critical to retrain yourself to get the earlier hours of the night sleep even if you get up at 3:00 am and cannot sleep any longer. At least by that time the brain would have completed it's body maintainance and repair routines and gotten rest.

A votre Sante

[This message has been edited by Curt (edited 01-30-2002).]

FAITH - As God's blessed sons & daughters we are to attempt the impossible to the extent that we will fail unless God steps in.   Keep the faith

Curt

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2002, 06:01:00 AM »
=======================
TODAY IN HEALTH HISTORY
=======================

"B" good

We all need B vitamins.  Vitamin B is a complex of at least eight
separate water-soluble vitamins including thiamin, riboflavin,
niacin and folic acid.  The Merck and Company Labs in New Jersey
announced a method to manufacture biotin, a member of the Vitamin
B complex, on May 14, 1943.  Biotin is necessary for carbohydrate
and fat metabolism.  A balanced diet will usually provide enough
biotin.  Foods that have higher amounts of biotin include nuts,
yeast, cereals, green leafy vegetables and milk.

Copyright InteliHealth, Inc., 2002.  All rights reserved.

Still, the counsel is clear that in fruits, nuts, grains and  vegetables can be found ALL that our bodies require  :)

FAITH - As God's blessed sons & daughters we are to attempt the impossible to the extent that we will fail unless God steps in.   Keep the faith

Allan F

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2002, 11:18:00 AM »
According to scientist and professor W. Veith (SDA) the B-12 vitamine is produced by bacteria in the intestine that are sensitive to acid environments. For ruminants (cows etc.) there is no problem because the rumen contains an alkaline medium and ample bacteria which can produce this vitamin.

In Non-ruminant plant eaters (rabbits etc.) the bacteria that produce B-12 are found in the posterior portions of the intestinal tract where the absorption is minimal. The problem is solved by eating what's coming out in the other end. Short of this practise (coprophagy) humans must get B-12 from the diet. Vegan-vegetarians have a high consumption of fibre, and thus a higher concentration of bacteria in the lower portions of the small intestine where B-12 can still be absorbed. "The more alkaline the diet, the higher the intestinal bacterial concentration will be", he writes. As far as I know, the fermentation which arises by combining fruits and vegetables at the same meal will produce an acid environment unsuitable for these bacteria.

Veith also mentions that "when purchasing fortified foods or supplements, it is important to note that the product contains cobalamin, and not some analouge of the vitamin", which may make matters worse because it may interfere with normal absorption of cobalamin (he mentions fermented soy food such as tempeh and spirulina).

Allan F


Richard Myers

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2002, 08:50:00 PM »
Thanks for the information, Brother Allan. I am interested in finding out if supplements of cobalamin come from an animal source. And, if it can come from a vegetarian source.

Richard

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Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2002, 01:12:00 PM »
I am interested to know what B-12 supplements are made from.
Does anyone know?
Clive

Sister Marie

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2002, 04:06:00 PM »
I used to take Vit. B's but got nothing from them as in feeling better, better memory, more pep, etc...

I starting crushing them to a power and blending it with ornge juice and drinking it down. (taste is ok with ornge juice but needs to go down before settling) This gets into the system right away as I really feel the change with more pep and sharpness of mind. Remembering to take it is my problem, but it sure works better taking it this way.   :)

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With Christian Love,
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Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2002, 07:44:00 PM »
The question that concerns me is are they made from meat products as some have suggested and from the feed back I have got from some companies is that they are made from meat. If that is the case then you wouldn't know what you are really getting.
Clive

Richard Myers

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2005, 03:02:00 PM »
The following posts have been moved from a duplicate topic.

*********************************

Clive Nevell

posted 09-26-2005 12:29 PM              
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do not know if this subject has already come up here or not.
Recently at our Camp in South Queensland the issue of lack of B12 in the average Adventist diet was brought up in one of the afternoon workshops.

The presenter was Dr Bevan Hokin from the Sydney Adventist Hospital.

He said that 90% of vegans were lacking in B12 from the resluts of a recent survey. As well many vegatarians were also lacking in B12.

Most people that went into nursing homes also lacked B12.

He said it is a must for vegans to suppliment their dietry intake with a good brand of vitamin B12.

As for vegetarians and those over 65 years of age he suggested they do the same.

I am wondering how members here get their B12 and if they use suppliments.

Apparently anything less than a result of 260 a person should be taking suppliments to bring B12 up to the required levels.

Clive

>>>>


JimB

posted 09-26-2005 01:05 PM              
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Brother Clive, there are people on here that I'm sure will have a better answer to your question. I've often wondered this myself. If B12 is a must for the human body then there must be a way to get it outside of animal sources. I've heard that brewers yeast has B12 in it and that some people lightly sprinkle their popcorn with it. But don't take my word for it. I've also heard that our bodies also produce B12.
Hopefully, someone here will either correct or confirm this and maybe even have some better sources of B12.


Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2005, 01:07:00 AM »
Thanks Brother Richard for bringing them over.

This really is a very important topic for SDA's and in particular those who are vegetarians and even more important for vegans.

Let's try and find out as much as we can on this topic.

It means a lot me as during Camp a few weeks ago the local hospital called my wife and told her to pass a message onto me to start a course using a good quality of multi vitamins with B12 in. My B12 is on the low side of average and they want it to be built up more than it is.

That is why I am now showing more interest in it now than before.

Clive


Bill Wennell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2005, 07:37:00 AM »
The truth is that we can get our B12 from the same place other all vegetarian animals do, from plant sources. The real cause of B12 problems is not B12 defeciency but an absorbtion problem which is more common in meat eaters than vegans but it is more announced in vegan cases as a cause for why one should not be a vegan. Especially has the upper eschalon SDA taken to add fuel to this fire as they don't want their "fanatical" SDA members to adopt the diet laid down by Ellen White (to eliminate all meat and dairy from your diet if you are able). As such we will hear more and more about this from within SDA while we hear just the opposite from non-religious vegans from outside of the SDA church (they understand we DON'T need to supplement B12 if we are eating a wholesome vegetarian diet). In short, we are losing our own message that the world is pronouncing without the associated connection with Jesus Christ!

The unofficial "official" SDA stance is a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I have talked this over with physicians within Adventism and have been told this has come down through channels. There was especially a case in Australia where an Adventist couple were being tried for child abuse over the family diet (vegan) and a medical condition of the child which resulted in death. While I don't know the whole story and believe it is possible that this couple may have been somewhat fanatical in their extremes (did they not get some kind of medical advice?) the church distanced themselves from them and pronounced them as "fanatics". It was at this time I first read that the "official" church stance was lacto-ovo despite EGW's statements to the contrary and the medical effects of dairy in the diet.

------------------
Bill Wennell
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bible4u@localnet.com

[This message has been edited by Bill Wennell (edited 09-27-2005).]

Bill Wennell<BR>Medical-missionary Brazil<BR>BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com

JimB

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2005, 08:20:00 AM »
Brother Bill, you said...  
quote:
The truth is that we can get our B12 from the same place other all vegetarian animals do, from plant sources.
 This has always been my gut feeling. However, even those who run or work in some of our "lifestyle centers" have not been able to tell me exactly what these plant sources are. I would love to know not only for my own benefit but for when I'm having these kinds of discussions with other people.
By communion with God in nature, the mind is uplifted, and the heart finds rest.  {DA 291.1}

Bill Wennell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2005, 08:27:00 AM »
http://www.lifesave.org/VitaminB12.htm

http://www.notmilk.com/vitaminb12.html

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

In short, if you're worried about take a supplement or make sure you eat some fortified foods - especially if pregnant or nursing.

------------------
Bill Wennell
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bible4u@localnet.com

Bill Wennell<BR>Medical-missionary Brazil<BR>BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com

Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2005, 01:16:00 AM »
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The truth is that we can get our B12 from the same place other all vegetarian animals do, from plant sources.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to Dr Bevan Hokin who took the workshop at Camp he said you cannot get enough from plant sources. You would have to eat something like 10kg's of mushrooms daily to get your supply of B12.

He also said that mushrooms are plants that have the most B12 in them so the rest just about have nothing in them.

A survey was done with vegans that showed 90% were short of B12 and about half of vegetarians were also. Then about 40% of people over the age of 65 were also short on B12.

So it seems there is a much greater problem for Adventsits with low B12 than we have been aware of in the past.

Clive


Clive Nevell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2005, 01:22:00 AM »
If in any doubt at get a blood test before any suppliments are taken so you know where you are to start with.

I did and I am low and need to take something so it can be built up.

Clive


Bill Wennell

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2005, 04:55:00 AM »
The following quote from the SOP is quoted on the first page of this post:

"in grains, fruits, vegetables, and nuts are to be found ALL the food elements that we need. If we will come to the Lord in simplicity of mind, He will teach us how to prepare wholesome food free from the taint of flesh meat." --Counsels on Diet and Food, p. 310.

The question is DO YOU BELIEVE IT? Not do you pay lip service to it but DO YOU BELIEVE IT? You don't have to understand it or debate it. The study mentioned that 90% of vegans have low B12 levels is UNSUBSTANTIATED even if it came from the highest medical source man can supply. There are other studies that state just the opposite. So again the question is, which do you believe?

The truth is that B12 is needed in miniscule amounts and can be destroyed by unhealthy eating. So what we see is that you can claim to be vegetarian (vegan) and your B12 will diminish if you are not eating properly. But if you are, don't worry about it!

The leadership within SDA is trying to get you to be "lacto-ovo" and they are using scare tactics to do it. Once again, do you believe science? leadership? or the Spirit of Prophecy? I don't read anywhere in the writings where she worried about B12 or even hinted at a "strange vitamin that we need to get from outside sources".

Eat right and trust in God!

"Thus it was that the wise men of this world talked of science and the fixed laws of nature, and declared that there could be no variation in these laws, and that the message of Noah (or Ellen White in this case) could not possibly be true. The talented men of Noah's (or our) time set themselves in league AGAINST GOD's WILL AND PURPOSE and scorned the message and the messenger that He had sent... Noah (or us) COULD NOT CONTROVERT THEIR PHILOSOPHIES, OR REFUTE THE CLAIMS OF SCIENCE SO CALLED; BUT HE (or we) COULD PROCLAIM THE WORD OF GOD; for he knew it contained the infinite wisdom of the Creator, and, as he sounded it everywhere, it lost none of its force and reality because men of the world treated him with ridicule and contempt" (Relecting Christ, page 323 - excerpted from Signs of the Times, April 18, 1895)

God said it, I believe it. I don't have to be able to refute it coming from a so called doctor, if he is going against the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy. If this doctor's point is to take care with your B12 level, I can live with that. But what was his summation? That we HAVE to eat fortified (processed) foods? That we NEED animal products (dairy or others)? That a total plant based diet is inadequate? If so, its time to switch him off!

By the way, set B12 levels may be set too high as they are based on a majority level of which the majority are meat/dairy eaters, not "normal" levels.

------------------
Bill Wennell
USDA Meat & Poultry Inspector
bible4u@localnet.com

[This message has been edited by Bill Wennell (edited 09-28-2005).]

Bill Wennell<BR>Medical-missionary Brazil<BR>BiblicalTruths2000@Juno.com

WendyForsyth

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Vitamin B-12 deficiency in vegetarians?
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2005, 08:12:00 PM »
Also, the amounts found in plant sources may be very small, but they are far more bio-available. The amounts are greater in animal products but they are not bio-available, and your body wears down ridding itself of the excess which is at that point considered a toxin.

It's like the people that argue over breastmilk. They say/said that there wasn't enough B-12 in breastmilk (as well as iron and other things) because it was found in such miniscule amounts. But what research has found is that that little bit that the body produces in the milk is just the right amount and is used far more efficiently and in the right way than supplemented formula.

If we believe that we can't get our nutrition from plant sources alone, then we negate the creation story because we must not believe that God created us to function perfectly without meat products. (and yes I agree foods are less nutritious and stripped of their goodness nowadays, but it can be done!)

I have no doubt that God considers you to be one of His friends; otherwise He would not trust you with so many crosses, sufferings and humiliations. Crosses are God's means of drawing souls closer to Himself.

Fenelon