Author Topic: I view this Women's Ordination Topic iotally different than anyone else it seems  (Read 148 times)

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ClaudiaThompson

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To begin with,  am a Conservative Seventh Day Adventist. But as I had decided to do my own research into this entire topic of Women's Ordinations, to me at least, everything appeared different than ether side was making it out to be.  Personally, I think that in a large degree, many SDAs have the outlook that because they are Conservatives, then they should just accept whatever their Conservative Leaders say about things, and neglect to think for themselves. And the same is true for many of the Liberals, as well. You know, if you really study it out, Jesus seemed to have views that were Conservative in some respects, but Liberal in other respects. And the same seems true for Ellen White. I guess because the Spirit of Prophecy is the Testimony of Jesus.

I could say a whole lot more, but overall, here is what I think....

When I read the Spirit of Prophecy regarding the work that Women ought to be doing. I see that TRUE MINISTRY is for them to be going out doing canvassing work, door to door. Ellen White said that the enemy (which is Satan) would be pleased if Women were all tied up and occupied with children, and etc. Notice in the second quote she says that God could use Women to help hundreds.

Testimonies for the Church Volume 6, pg. 330, 331
"All who desire an opportunity for TRUE MINISTRY, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."

“There are women who should labor in the gospel ministry. In many respects they would do more good than the ministers who neglect to visit the flock of God. Husband and wife may unite in this work, and when it is possible, they should. The way is open for consecrated women. But the enemy would be pleased to have the women whom God could use to help hundreds binding up their time and strength on one helpless little mortal that requires constant care and attention.”—Manuscript Releases 5:325, 326.

Now if you'll just think about it for a minute, Satan has also caused the Church Leaders to make our Male Ministers get all caught up in Jesuit Spiritual Formation and Jesuit Exercises of Ignatius Loyola. Now who in their right mind would want to work for the Conference like this? Like when they don't even want the Church Members to pass out Great Controversy books, because the real book exposes the Papacy as the Antichrist?

And so here is the picture, as I see it.....

We have thousands of Men and Women begging the Conference to please 'Ordain' them, when John the Baptist was never ordained. In fact, Jesus Himself has already ordained ALL of us, for the work of True Ministry that He has given to us to do.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit.

And at the same time, you have Millions of people out there in the World, in the dark, who have never even heard the Three Angels Messages. And the Women, instead of going door to door, telling the World our Message, as they were admonished to do, are instead busy crying about the fact that the Conference refuses to 'Ordain' them so that they too can be trained to do Jesuit Spiritual Exercises of Ignatius Loyola and all the rest of it. Doesn't this seem silly to any of you at all? It does to me.

Don't you think Satan is happy about all of this? I do! Thousands of Women begging for the Conference, who has already tried to force Jesuit thinking on our Male Ministers, to give them 'permission' to work for God, when in reality, they do not NEED to be ordained. And they don't need to be under the thumb of the Conference.

I just believe it is a big huge mess, and that the Devil has succeeded in diverting everyone's attention to the WRONG THING.

Do we forget that Ellen White said these two things?

She said that God would take the work into His own hands and work out of the common order of things.

SPECIAL TESTIMONIES FOR MINISTERS AND WORKERS—NO. 6, PAGE 59, 60
"Let me tell you that the Lord will work in this last work in a manner very much out of the common order of things, and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. There will be those among us who will always want to control the work of God, to dictate even what movements shall be made when the work goes forward under the direction of the angel who joins the third angel in the message to be given to the world. God will use ways and means by which it will be seen that he is taking the reins in his own hands. The workers will be surprised by the simple means that he will use to bring about and perfect his work of righteousness."

And she said that men would have the unction of the Holy Spirit, instead of being taught in Literary Schools.

THE GREAT CONTROVERSY 1888, PAGE 606
"Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to his service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of his Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of Spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power,—all will be unmasked."

While we are all wrapped up in begging the Conference to permit Women to be 'ordained', and millions are starving to hear the Three Angel's Messages, and Women should be bypassing the Conference, going door to door, and giving the Message to the World!

That's how I see it.

Secondarily, as a side note, Ellen White's own Secretary, Clarence Crisler, had answered a question on issue of Women's Ordination to someone who wrote in to him about it, and he said that just because Ellen White didn't say either way on the subject should not be taken to mean that in the future the Seventh Day Adventist Church would not have Women's Ordination.

And Ellen White talked about this one Woman who was a Presbyterian and who was prejudiced against the idea of Women Ministers that the Seventh Day Adventist had. Finally though, she was talked into going to listen to Ellen White preach and was converted. 

When I studied this out for myself, it became obvious to me that having Women Ministers being ordained was something that our Church did back in Ellen White's day, but stopped soon after she had died.

But in reality though, this should not even be the issue, in my opinion, because Women should not even WANT to be Ordained, not in this time of the Omega Apostasy. All it would be to them is a hindrance to keep them from preaching and teaching our true full message to the World.
Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

ClaudiaThompson

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In light of the following information, I have a difficult time believing that the idea of Women's Ordination in the Seventh Day Adventist is 'evil' as many seem to impy that it is....

 In a letter of June 16, 1916, to Mrs. L. E. Cox from San Antonio, Texas,
Clarence Crisler, one of Ellen White’s leading secretaries, commented on Ellen
White’s attitude in regard to women’s ordination:

"And may I add that Sister White, personally, was very careful about expressing
herself in any wise as to the advisability of ordaining women as gospel ministers. She has
often spoken of the perils that such general practice would expose the church to by a
gainsaying world; but as yet I have never seen from her pen any statement that would
seem to encourage the formal and official ordination of women to the gospel ministry, to
public labor such as is ordinarily expected of an ordained minister.
This is not suggesting, much less saying, that no women are fitted for such public
labor, and that none should ever be ordained; it is simply saying that so far as my
knowledge extends, Sister White never encouraged church officials to depart from the
general customs of the church in those matters."
-C. C. Crisler to Mrs. L. E. Cox, June 16, 1916

Just highlighting this statement

"This is not suggesting, much less saying, that no women are fitted for such public labor, and that none should ever be ordained" -Clarence Crisler

Remember, Clarence Crisler was one of Ellen White’s leading secretaries. And if she had say ANYTHING derogatory about Women's Ordination, I would highly doubt that Brother Crisler would have made such a statement.

This is one of the biggest things that made me start to really look in to this whole thing, researching it on my own, and setting aside any preconceived opinions that I may have formerly had about it.

He said Ellen White was simply very careful about expressing herself about this subject. To me, it seems obvious that she realised the PREJUDICE people had about Women Ministers.

READ:

Selected Messages Book 1, Page 149
"Mrs. F had often made the statement that she would never join the Seventh-day Adventists. She had been brought up in the Presbyterian Church, and had been educated to think that it was very improper for women to speak in meeting, and that for a woman to preach was altogether beyond the bounds of propriety. She enjoyed hearing Elders Daniells and Corliss, and thought them very clever speakers, but she would not listen to a woman’s preaching." -Ellen White

Do you understand? Back then, Many people were afraid to even join the Seventh Day Adventist Church because they had Women Preachers. Just set your preconceivedopinions aside for a moment and actually look up the history of this. And that was why Ellen White didn't mention it either way. She simply wanted to avoid the prejudice that so many Christians had in those days, and all she wanted to do was to unify everyone so that the Three Angel's Messages could go forward.

It was like one of the same reasons why she avoided talking about the subject of the King of the North. James White and Uriah Smith had conflicting views on the subject.

There are so many different things that I discovered about this subject like this, once I sarted really looking into it. And to me, it is just such a shame that so many Conservatives are so closed minded about this.

As I said, I have very Conservative views about most subject, but I really have changed my mind on this one.
Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

colporteur

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 We ought not base our belief off of what the Bible does NOT say or what another person thinks was the reason why EGW did not advocate women being ordained. The ordination of men as pastors/elders was established in Scripture and has been followed up until the past few years.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

ClaudiaThompson

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 We ought not base our belief off of what the Bible does NOT say or what another person thinks was the reason why EGW did not advocate women being ordained. The ordination of men as pastors/elders was established in Scripture and has been followed up until the past few years.

Can I ask you, are you a Vegetarian? And if so, why? I need a Bible verse for this, please? The Bible says that Jesus ate fish.
Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

ClaudiaThompson

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  • Posts: 30
    • My YouTube Channel (the closest thing I have to a website now)

 We ought not base our belief off of what the Bible does NOT say or what another person thinks was the reason why EGW did not advocate women being ordained. The ordination of men as pastors/elders was established in Scripture and has been followed up until the past few years.

I would also like to ask you, in light of the fact that the Bible says the following....

1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Why do you think that these People back then needed to be told that they should be men who only have one wife? Didn't God tell them that way back in the beginning? Why then did they practice Polygamy in Old Testament times?

To me, people who try to use the passage 'Bishops should be husband of one wife' as 'proof' that ONLY MEN should be Ministers, is like someone who uses 'Jesus ate fish' to prove that we can eat meat TODAY. And well, no we should NOT do that, because we are better enlightened than they were in that day. Jesus merely went along with the customs of the times... because they were not ready for anything futher as of yet.

THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, PAGE 606
"Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to His service. The laborers will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the observances of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism, the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power—all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred."

Ooops! Ellen White said 'MEN' of faith and prayer... I hope you don't take that to mean that ONLY Men will be doing this?

Now then look at the passage that says Women should be having that 'meek and quiet spirit'. I would hope that you don't actually believe that 'only' women need to have a meek and quiet spirit? Note that MINISTERS are supposed to have that meek and quiet spirit, so we are in trouble if we are so narrow minded to think it applies to only Women, as the Bible passage SEEMS to imply, on the surface...

EVANGELISM, PAGE 502
"True ministers know the value of the inward working of the Holy Spirit upon human hearts. They are content with simplicity in religious services. Instead of making much of popular singing, they give their principal attention to the study of the Word, and render praise to God from the heart. Above the outward adorning they regard the inward adorning, the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit. In their mouths is found no guile."—Manuscript 21, 1891.

The passage people manage to come up with to claim that 'only men' can be Ministers, is where it says that 'a bishop should be man of only one wife'. This was back hundreds of years ago. They were still SO archaic then that they had to be told they must only have one wife, for Heaven's sake! This was based on CULTURE. If we were to take this literally we should have to then claim that these Men only MUST be married, then, and they MUST have children, because the passage also says they have to rule their house well and have their children in subjection, besides having one wife.

Sometimes. we need to learn how to step back and look at the bigger picture of things and think outside of the box.

Why do we know we are to be Vegetarians? It is because, as Ellen White said, God desires us to go BACK to the time BEFORE sin began. Think it through... Why only in THAT area? The ONLY reason that people come up with this idea that 'Men only' are to be Pastors, is because of SIN. Eve SINNED... and so the Bible says Women should be submitted to their own Husbands. It NEVER says in the Bible that Women should be submitted to every Man on the Planet. The ONLY thing people can come up with in regards to the Ministry is that the Bible says a Minister should be Husband of one wife. PERIOD. That is how archaic people were still, back when that was written. God had allowed His own People, to practice Polygamy in Old Testament times, because 'He winketh at sin' in times of ignorance, just as it says in the Book of Acts. Just in the same way that God has allowed His People to eat meat, in the past. The Bible never actually SAID do not eat any meat, did it? No. Just as it never actually said, It is alright for Women to be Pastors.

But the truth is that God wishes His People in the End Times to go BACK to the way that things were before sin. And the TRUTH is the Bible never even SAID 'Women shall not be Pastors'. Now, I understand this, but if I were to tell it to someone, they would have to understand themselves this principle of God leading His People into the light as in 'more and more unto the perfect day' [Proverbs 4:18] to be able to have 'ears to listen' to what I am saying. John the Baptist ate locust which is called 'St. John's bread'... its Vegetarian. But you aren't going to find the Bible outright TELLING you that 'I want My People in the Last Days to be Vegetarian, because that is what things were like before sin'. Just as you are not going to find where the Bible says NOT to officially have Women as Pastors in Ellen White's day, because of the fact that people were still so prejudiced against Women holding positions like that.

But we can SEE certain things that went on, and deduce from those things, using our common sense that God gave to us such as the fact that the Women at the Well did even better work than the Disciples, since she used her vision, which they did not...

CHRISTIAN SERVICE, PAGE 97
"The Samaritan woman who talked with Jesus at Jacob’s well had no sooner found the Saviour than she brought others to Him. She proved herself a more effective missionary than His own disciples. The disciples saw nothing in Samaria to indicate that it was an encouraging field. Their thoughts were fixed upon a great work to be done in the future. They did not see that right around them was a harvest to be gathered. But through the woman whom they despised a whole city full were brought to hear Jesus. She carried the light at once to her countrymen. This woman represents the working of a practical faith in Christ."—The Ministry of Healing, 102.

Now you might say 'but we aren't talking about Evangelists, we are talking about MINISTERS'.

And if you did say that this would demonstrate to me that you do not at all comprehend what TRUE Ministry IS. You think it means to officiate at Funerals. Jesus said let the dead bury the dead and come and work for ME... catching fish for the Kingdom. NO, true Ministry IS Evangelism.

Testimonies for the Church —6:330, 331 (1900).
An Invaluable Experience—"All who desire an opportunity for TRUE MINISTRY, and who will give themselves unreservedly to God, will find in the canvassing work opportunities to speak upon many things pertaining to the future, immortal life. The experience thus gained will be of the greatest value to those who are fitting themselves for the ministry. It is the accompaniment of the Holy Spirit of God that prepares workers, both men and women, to become pastors to the flock of God."

I believe that this is why our Church is in the condition that it is, because most Seventh Day Adventists, and even most of our Preachers stand there week after week delivering sermons to dead Church, and they just sit there listening. And that is all it amounts to. They are not teaching the People to go out and tell the World this Message. The Samaritan Woman understood what it meant to be a PREACHER.


People, we need the REAL Baptism... The Baptism of the SPIRIT. God has broken down that partition wall. There is no longer men verses women, in God's eyes for His People. Except where Husband and Wife are concerned. He gives His Spirit to ALL who will receive it, and that is what it takes to be a TRUE Minister.

Galatians 3:27-29
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Joel 2:27-29
27 And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the Lord your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

I am not talking about these Ministers who are under the Conference's thumb, and under THEIR control.... learning how to mimic the Catholic Jesuits. It amazes me that some of these so-called 'Conservatives' will almost fight to the death to raise their voices against Women's Ordination, when they well know the condition of the Church. It would have been wondrous if they would have made as big deal out of our Ministers being trained to be CATHOLICS, as they are about Women being ordained into the Ministry.... threatening to withdraw their tithe and even leave the Church over it. Why haven't they left ALREADY, if that's the case then? I mean, talk about having their priorities messed up!

And NO you are NOT going to find that 'magic' Bible verse that says, "I expect all of you to have common sense and to realize that in the Last Days that Women should be Ministers'. This is not going to be there. That was inconceivable back then. Because 'we see through a glass darkly'. Just like there NEVER WAS that 'magic' Bible verse that says 'I expect you to have Men, and only and ever Men as Ministers'. Because that verse just isn't there either, and it never WAS there. God worked with His people as they were, and that was why Jesus said to His Disciples, 'I have much to tell you, but you cannot bear it NOW'. And lucky for them He didn't flat out inform them that the Samaritan Woman was doing a better job at preaching than they themselves were. I imagine that they wouldn't have been able to bear that EITHER. At least not THEN, anyway.

Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

And speaking again about Ellen White telling us that God is seeking to bring us all BACK to the original state of things, like being a Vegetarian, etc because it was His original plan for man before sin...

God Himself gave Adam a companion. He provided “an help meet for him”—a helper corresponding to him—one who was fitted to be his companion, and who could be one with him in love and sympathy. Eve was created from a rib taken from the side of Adam, signifying that she was not to control him as the head, nor to be trampled under his feet as an inferior, but to stand by his side as an equal, to be loved and protected by him. A part of man, bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh, she was his second self; showing the close union and the affectionate attachment that should exist in this relation. “For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it.” Ephesians 5:29.... -The Faith I Live By, p. 251

It was to be as if they were the same person. Equal, with no one trying to control the other.

(this first paragraph was written by Jerry Moon)
That Ellen White saw both women and men as potentially qualified for church leadership is shown by her statement that "it is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church." The context is a scathing rebuke to a Brother Johnson who had "a disposition to dictate and control matters" in a certain local church, and who had only "sneers" for the work of women in the same church. "Jesus is ashamed of you," she wrote, and on the next page continued,

Ellen G. White to Brother Johnson, Letter 33, 1879, Manuscript Releases, 19:55-56.
"You are not in sympathy with the great Head of the church. . . . This contemptible picking, faultfinding, seeking spot and stain, ridiculing, gainsaying, that you with some others have indulged in, has grieved the Spirit of God and separated you from God.
It is not always men who are best adapted to the successful management of a church. If faithful women have more deep piety and true devotion than men, they could indeed by their prayers and their labors do more than men who are unconsecrated in heart and life."
Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

ClaudiaThompson

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I forgot to include this, where we were told that God is seeking to bring us back to His original design, before sin. Because that was the best possible way to be.

"Again and again I have been shown that God is bringing His people back to His original design, that is, not to subsist upon the flesh of dead animals. He would have us teach people a better way....

If meat is discarded, if the taste is not educated in that direction, if a liking for fruits and grains is encouraged, it will soon be as God in the beginning designed it should be. No meat will be used by His people."—Ellen White, Letter 3, 1884
Matthew 9:36-38
36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

colporteur

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Claudia;
If you can show me from Inspiration that the "original design" was for the wife to be the house-band, the leader over her husband then I will be with you. Inspiration is very clear about the original design regarding diet, that it does not include eating dead carcasses. That is clear. The burden is on you to present that woman was to lead man in the beginning. Why do you think that Adam was creating taller ? As far as I can tell, there was no physiological reason for it. He did not need to protect Eve from mean lions because there were none.

There is far more than one verse and one SOP quote regarding this subject if you believe that the husband of one wife does not support the GC position.

I have yet to hear someone say " we need to think outside the box" that did not mean " think outside the books."  Your position is not "conservative" and it rebels again the GC vote, which many believe stands on a Biblical platform.

I believe people ought to tread lightly on their theories regarding advocating and pressuring in WO considering the presecendence that Jesus laid down Himself in the Bible with the 12, that His people have practiced for many centuries , that the early SDA church understood and practiced, and in which there is not one thread of evidence in Inspiration that it ought to be otherwise.

Lastly, we have the luxury of observing other churches go before us that have followed the feminist movement. The fruit is not good. Virtually every church that now baptizes homosexuals and places lesbians in a position to lead the church, first ordained women as pastors. Every ounce of evidence we have both in Inspiration as well as the fruit of it says NO. The GC, which is a respresentation of the church body voted NO and the fact that those who wish to press this at all costs reveal a spirit of being willing to divide the church rather than grow the church. The proposal that women are not allowed to minister unless they are ordained as an elder or pastor  is ludicrous and insults all the faithful women that are ministering worldwide ( without being ordained by the laying on of hands). These women who are simply out there winning souls and treating the sick, they are the true female ministers in our church.

I will not argue long with you about this Claudia. The devil has gotten into the minds of many  and like Dan Jackson they are mad. No one is forcing people to be a member of the SDA church and if they are convicted that not ordaining women as pastors makes the church "babylon" then they should by all means leave.

It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.