Author Topic: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind  (Read 6284 times)

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ejclark

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2016, 06:12:10 PM »
ejclark, I noticed that you expressed a view of Elihu being reproved by God by God speaking to Job, but this does not fit the context of the passage itself if we look at the first three verses of Job 38:

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


If God is calling Elihu to repent through Job, it is inconsistent with the book of Job itself, for Elihu is not referred to as having needed to repent. He had spoken as God's Spirit moved him:12. 
Job 32:4   Now Elihu had waited till Job had spoken, because they were elder than he. 
 32:5   When Elihu saw that there was no answer in the mouth of these three men, then his wrath was kindled. 
 32:6   And Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite answered and said, I am young, and ye are very old; wherefore I was afraid, and durst not show you mine opinion. 

Job 42:7   And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 
 42:8   Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 
 42:9   So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job. 

I believe it's obvious that Elihu is not a Patriarch in this story. Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar are, otherwise the Lord would not be asking them to make sacrifice for themselves. And if Elihu was truly the person Elihu thought himself to be, then the Lord would have used Elihu as the intercessor and exalted him to be a Patriarch. As it is, God but barely acknowledged his existence by saying 38:2 Who is this (Elihu) that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge.

Pastor Sean Brizendine

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2016, 07:29:13 PM »
ejclark, I appreciate your response and I see that you genuinely believe Elihu to have done some wrong or to have been less exalted spiritually than Job or the other three men, and hence you do not see him as one of the Patriarchs. However, one of the lessons that emerges from Job is that God will speak through a younger, humble man who would be willing to speak in defense of the righteousness of God, and call Job (who became self-righteous) to repentance. Jesus is revealed in the character and life of Elihu, and Christ when only 12 spoke words to the wiser "Patriarchs" or "scribes and pharisees" that astounded them--because He was humble and taught by God.

It was Job that had darkened God's counsel, and that is why he repented. God speaks clearly TO JOB:

Job 38:1-3
1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


God is clearly speaking directly to Job by the repeated personal pronouns: "thy," "thee," and "thou" after the most recent personal noun used is "Job." Simple reading of the Bible does not allow for the interpretation that your Sabbath School class came up with. It is creative, I must admit--but it is not founded upon a clear reading of the text of Scripture itself. Thankfully, when we let the Bible interpret itself, the things that are apparently difficult can be made plain.

The fact that God did not call upon Elihu to make the sacrifices for the other three men does not indicate a lesser spiritual standing, but it really makes sense that Job would be called to do that, since he had earlier reproached them (specifically the three friends who are mentioned by that point) in the following words:

Job 16:1-2: "Then Job answered and said,
I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all."


God gave him the opportunity to pray for his enemies (yes, they were his friends, but they had treated him as enemies, and he had responded in an way that did not bring glory to God. Let us be thankful that God gave each of the men that needed to repent space to repent.
"When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing." {The Desire of Ages, 676.4}

Pastor Sean Brizendine

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2016, 07:28:06 AM »

The fact that God did not call upon Elihu to make the sacrifices for the other three men does not indicate a lesser spiritual standing, but it really makes sense that Job would be called to do that, since he had earlier reproached them (specifically the three friends who are mentioned by that point) in the following words:

Job 16:1-2: "Then Job answered and said,
I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all."


God gave him the opportunity to pray for his enemies (yes, they were his friends, but they had treated him as enemies, and he had responded in an way that did not bring glory to God. Let us be thankful that God gave each of the men that needed to repent space to repent.

In reflecting upon my post, I misstated an aspect of the Job narrative. Job did not actually make any sacrifices for his friends. The Scripture makes this clear:
 
Job 42
7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the Lord commanded them: the Lord also accepted Job.
10 And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.


I had mistakenly referred to Job offering a sacrifice for his three friends. That is not actually what the Lord called for. The Lord called Eliphaz and the other two friends to offer up sacrifices for their own sin, and then also assured them that Job would pray for them (as would be sure to come since Job had repented!). Job's repentance is seen in how he treats these friends. Elihu would have been praying all along, and the silence and patience he manifested until later in the narrative of the book of Job shows that God can use a humble, patient man to speak the truth--being a Patriarch or not does not determine one's ability to be used by God to speak truth.

May God bless you ejclark as you continue to look to Jesus. You are in my prayers.
"When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing." {The Desire of Ages, 676.4}

Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2016, 07:53:22 AM »
Amen, dear Pastor Sean. Presenting truth is important. Speaking error is serious. But, more important and what you point out, is the heart being filled with love, love for those who do not reveal that love for us, or worse who attack our character. A perfect man such as was Job in chapters one and two, was not so perfect afterwards. As Ulicia pointed out, his faith wavered. As his eyes wandered away from the Savior, he could only see the things of this world. His friends were attacking him, at first with a lie, that his great suffering was on account of his having sinned. Job knew this was not true. He had not sinned at that point in time. The withering attacks on his person continued. Job, not maintaining his hold on God, had no power to resist the temptation to defend self. In so doing, he was not the strong one bearing with the infirmities of the weak (his three friends). But, as the Spirit reminded him of truths about how great God is, his sick and tired mind would then repeat the truth. He would not curse God, but praise him.

Job's situation does not make excuse for sin, but it does reveal how difficult it is to maintain a connection with Christ when so severely attacked when one is sick and tired. It is not an excuse, but it is a reality that we need to learn from. There are days just in front of us when this lesson will be of great importance to those who will live through a time of trouble such as never was without a Mediator. They will have to lean on the grace of Christ of which they know by experience.

They will understand what Pastor Sean has shared this morning, that we are not to call our friends "miserable comforters" when they attack our character, but we are to pray for them, and encourage them. When Job repented of his sins, he followed God's instruction to pray for his three friends who had not yet repented. Thus we see why it was that God could then turn his captivity and bless Job mightily. Through his experience he gained a better understanding of who he was, and of the grace of our almighty and loving God.

God does not want us to sin, but if we do, we still have a Mediator who will forgive our sins if we will repent. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. God does not excuse the sin, He does not wink at the sin. If we will allow Christ to take possession of the heart, He will come in and cleanse it from all unrighteousness. This is the work of the "Advocate" or "Mediator". He stands between our sin and death. Soon the period of probation will end for all on the Earth. Today, it will end for some. While we still have opportunity, we need to make our election and calling sure. Let us not make excuses for our sin, but give them to Jesus who willingly took them upon Himself as He hung on the cross. He loves us with a love past our comprehension! Wonder O heavens and be astonished O Earth!!
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ejclark

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2016, 03:55:31 PM »
If Job was the sinner you believe him to be, then why didn't God require him to offer sacrifice as He required his three friends to.

Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #45 on: December 16, 2016, 11:18:28 AM »
That is a good question, ej. The teaching on the Hebrew sanctuary and its services needs to be made more plain. While the sacrifices all pointed to Christ, the sanctuary system was part of the old covenant made at Sinai. It is a little hard to comprehend, but the old covenant did not agree to save anyone. It could not. The covenant promise was "obey and live."   None could obey in the state they were in. They did not understand they needed to be changed before they could obey. In sinful flesh, they had no ability to do any good thing. The old covenant was given that they would learn of their need, and learn of their Savior.

Thus, the sacrifices being called for, would not save anyone, they were to point to Christ as Savior. When they made sacrifice, it was to lead them to repentance through the blood of Christ. When God told Job to pray for his three friends, it was so that they would comprehend the sacrifice God told them to make. Job's prayers were that his friends would understand what they had done to Christ, that they would be brought to repentance, a repentance that Job already experienced. There was no need for Job to feel the blood of the slain animal to remind him of God's grace. He already was truly repentant. God was not pleased with the shedding of so much blood. It was not the animal's death God wanted, it was the sinners heart. He had Job's heart, then He wanted Job's three friend's hearts. And, this further explains why He did not ask Elihu to make sacrifice. He already had Elihu's heart.

Have a blessed Sabbath, my friend.
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ejclark

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2016, 01:56:45 PM »
God speaks clearly TO JOB:
Pastor, there's no need to get loud about it. If you want to add emphasis you can italicize, underline, change color, but all caps is raising the volume on the voice. I'm glad you didn't bold it as well, then you would've been shouting.

Richard,
What you say sounds reasonable enough, but I don't see the Scriptures saying it.

I don't see the sacrificial system in the old covenant because the sacrificial system predates the old covenant by about 3,000 years. In fact, it was a part of the new covenant Christ made with Adam and Eve. And most scholars date the story of Job to some time between the flood and Abraham, so then the story of Job would be about 400-500 years before the old covenant. Besides, the old covenant was about the 10 commandment law, not the sacrificial law.

When God told Job to pray for his three friends, it was so that they would comprehend the sacrifice God told them to make. Job's prayers were that his friends would understand what they had done to Christ, that they would be brought to repentance, a repentance that Job already experienced.
That's a reasonable answer, yet again, I don't find that explanation in any of the verses. If you are saying that Job repented in chapter 42, then it doesn't seem fair that God didn't give Job's three friends a chance to repent as well.

On a bit of a side note but it is relevant to this topic, it's no wonder women's ordination has made such leaps and bounds into our denomination. It seems very few people truly understand the spiritual leadership and sacrificial responsibility God called the Patriarchs to. Not that many of them stepped up to the plate and faithfully answered God's call. I can think of a few though. There was Noah, and Enoch. There was Abraham, though he had a few missteps along the way. Joseph, yet we don't usually consider him to be a Patriarch because we view him as being quite young. Moses....Joshua....Caleb......From then on the Patriarchs really didn't step up to the plate like their predecessors.

Job 4:1   Then Eliphaz the Temanite answered and said, 
 4:2   If we assay to commune with thee, wilt thou be grieved? but who can withhold himself from speaking? 
 4:3   Behold, thou hast instructed many, and thou hast strengthened the weak hands. 
 4:4   Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.

Eliphaz is explaining that many times Job has been a spiritual leader to many people. This would be some of the work of a Patriarch.

Job 1:5   And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. 

Here we have Job doing the most important work of a Patriarch for his family. Offering sacrifice and being the spiritual intercessor for them.

JimB

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2016, 04:05:41 PM »

There are important lessons for us in our day in the Book of Job. [/b] "Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: He is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: He will not afflict. Men do therefore fear Him: He respecteth not any that are wise of heart." 37:23,24. Then we read the Words spoken by God Himself in the last five chapters, 38-42. We have shared all of the Words spoken by God from chapter 38 to 41, but now we will continue with the last chapter wherein God continues to reveal who it is that has sinned. He tells us who has repented and who needs yet to repent. Some will still reject the truth and attack the character of Elihu just as Job's three friends had attacked the character of Job when he had not sinned.

Richard, I meant to ask this last week. You mentioned that there are important lessons in the book of Job and quoted Elihu saying that God will not afflict. I'm not saying that you or Elihu are wrong but how does one reconcile this with Rev 3:19?

Rev_3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
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Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2016, 06:51:17 PM »
Quote from: Richard Myers
The first lesson God would have us learn involves the "great controversy" between Christ and Satan. Satan charged God with being unfair because He demands obedience to His law. He then says it is impossible to keep God's law. God allows Satan to attend the meeting in heaven because He is going to present before Satan and the universe (the Adams of all the unfallen worlds) the evidence that man can perfectly keep His law. "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1.

This truth has been perverted to say that Job was not perfect. That none but Christ are perfect. Amazing that most of Christianity rejects the power of grace to keep from sinning. Then, Satan has not quit there. He then takes the opposite side of truth and perverts it. Even though he would have us believe Job was not perfectly keep the law, he then has twisted the truth in the Book of Job to say that Job did not sin after being attacked by his three friends. He is so clever that many, even when reading God's Words directed to Job, rebuking his sin of condemning God and being self righteous, believe Job did not sin.

I must confess I find the above a little confusing.   
My first question is -- what actually was Satan's charge when he addressed the situation put before him?
I don't see it being about how perfectly Job obeyed -- rather it was concerning MOTIVE.
Why was Job serving God, forsaking evil and living an upright life?

Job was living an upright life, but I do not believe he was perfectly sinless.
The word translated as "perfect" here is  is "tam"#H8552 and occurs 13 times in scripture.
It means morally upright, pious, undefiled, basically a good, person. 
Genesis 25:27  "Jacob was a perfect #G8552  man dwelling in tents"  (KJV translates it as "plain man")
But Jacob obviously was not sinless, he had a conniving personality that God had to change over many years.
Songs of Solomon speak of the "perfect" #H8552 sweetheart as "undefiled" in SS 5:2 and 6:9.

No, Job was not perfectly sinless.  He was an upright, pious man, but God still had some changing to do in his character.

The issue isn't primarily about perfectly keeping the law, but WHY and how one serves God.
Satan is saying -- Job doesn't serve you out of love, or because he believes its the best way to live, Job is serving you because you are bribing him to do so,  he's doing it only because of the perks you give him -- take those away and he will have no more reason to serve and obey You.

The fact is -- Satan was partially right, though Job had much more faith in God than Satan gave him credit for having, yet Job's dialog shows he did believe he deserved God's blessings because of his upright living.   God owed him better, God wasn't fair.  Job showed he felt this way very strongly in fact,  he felt God wasn't being fair in taking the "perks" away from him.   
This wasn't just "falling into a sin",  this was a defect in his character coming to the surface.   That's one thing about calamity and trials -- it exposes the hidden defects in our characters, and once exposed, if we are people of faith, we take them to God to deal with them.

God in His mercy was lifting Job to a higher level of "perfection" trust in Him through this experience.

The rebuke to Job makes it plain that "ignorance" was part of the problem.  Ignorance of just how much Job needed to depend on God, and how helpless he really was, and how powerful and mighty his Redeemer really was.
Yes, Job was serving God as best as he knew prior to the experience.
And yes, God accepts that --
For like the immature plant has "perfection" even though it still has a lot of growing to do, so was Job.
But Job still needed to grow.
God allows trials and tribulations to --- 1)expose our hidden defects 2)help us grow in grace when we repent and look to Him, in enabling us to grow. 3)and most important to realize our absolute need of our Redeemer.

colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2016, 05:39:28 AM »
As I study this lesson I see that Job sinned twice. However, these were both sins of ignorance or at least partial ignorance.

#1 Job thought that God brought this on, that God was the active agent in his pain and suffering. That was a half truth at best and frank error at worst depending on one's perception of what exactly the previous sentence means. God was the active agent in allowing this but not causing it. Since Job was not able to see the bigger picture he was simply accepting the theology of the culture.

#2 That Job was righteous because of his obedience.

We should be careful in not posturing in such a manner as to present Elihu as being more righteous than Job. Had he been so the Lord would have tested Elihu and not Job.
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Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2016, 01:49:07 PM »

There are important lessons for us in our day in the Book of Job. [/b] "Touching the Almighty, we cannot find him out: He is excellent in power, and in judgment, and in plenty of justice: He will not afflict. Men do therefore fear Him: He respecteth not any that are wise of heart." 37:23,24. Then we read the Words spoken by God Himself in the last five chapters, 38-42. We have shared all of the Words spoken by God from chapter 38 to 41, but now we will continue with the last chapter wherein God continues to reveal who it is that has sinned. He tells us who has repented and who needs yet to repent. Some will still reject the truth and attack the character of Elihu just as Job's three friends had attacked the character of Job when he had not sinned.

Richard, I meant to ask this last week. You mentioned that there are important lessons in the book of Job and quoted Elihu saying that God will not afflict. I'm not saying that you or Elihu are wrong but how does one reconcile this with Rev 3:19?

Rev_3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

What a blessing to find those who will not blindly accept what is written, but want understanding. Was Elihu speaking truth or his own wisdom?  :)
 
As I read the verse you quote, Jim, I thought that in context Elihu was speaking of God afflicting pain on the innocent. I can't think of an example where God brought suffering on one who is innocent as was Job.

When I read Elihu's statement for the first time and saw the importance of it, I too questioned my interpretation. God does chastise. But, how does God chastise? Does He do the afflicting, or does He allow Satan to afflict, or does He allow the sinner to suffer the consequence, not protecting him?

He certainly afflicted those who died in the flood. He did lay to rest Moses. And, we can go on and on. As a parent disciplines the child, so does God do for our best. Not having a fluent understanding of these two dead languages, I don't know if the translation could be better. I know that when the commandment says Thou Shalt not Kill, it does not mean "kill", but murder. God has commanded man to kill.

When Elihu said God does not afflict, in context I take that to mean God does not afflict the innocent. Chastising does not punish the innocent.   :)  What are your thoughts, Jim?
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Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2016, 02:05:39 PM »
As I study this lesson I see that Job sinned twice. However, these were both sins of ignorance or at least partial ignorance.

Self righteousness. Condemning God? Sins of ignorance? God did not wink at them. They caused his suffering to continue on.

Perverting the truth in a sinful manner. When innocent, God excuses Job's ignorance.  God excused Job at first when he was not sinning. "And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD. In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly." 1:21,22. Something was different later. What changed. Job was still ignorant of where the affliction came from, but then, he then sinned. Same with the second error when he was innocent of sin. "But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips." 2:10.


Quote
#2 That Job was righteous because of his obedience.

We should be careful in not posturing in such a manner as to present Elihu as being more righteous than Job. Had he been so the Lord would have tested Elihu and not Job.

The trial came to Job, not because he was righteous, but because Satan had lied about God being unfair in requiring perfect obedience to a law Satan says man cannot keep. God said why he chose Job. His character could withstand more than any other living person. But, when Job fell, when he lost his connection with God, who was more righteous, you or Job? If you are abiding in Christ and not sinning, how can you avoid the truth?

If one does not believe one is evil by nature, and that when sinning one is separated from God, then there would be confusion on what it means to be righteous. The weakest of the weak when abiding in Christ is more righteous than Moses when he struck the Rock with anger and pride or Job when he was self righteous. On the other hand, since there was none like Job, Elihu's character when compared to Job's when not sinning, was in advance of everyone, including his young friend, Elihu.

The lesson enables us to better understand the foundation of our faith. Not all we hear being taught in the church is truth. As we study the Bible to understand what is truth that we might walk in that light, God will bless us.
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colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2016, 02:17:40 PM »
"Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. Therefore we see that those who claim to be led of God, and go right away from Him and His law, do not search the Scriptures. But the Lord will lead His people; for He says that His sheep will follow if they hear His voice, but a stranger will they not follow. Then it becomes us to thoroughly understand the Scriptures. And we will not have to inquire whether others have the truth, for it will be seen in their characters."  {FW 56.1}

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Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2016, 02:21:42 PM »

Richard,
What you say sounds reasonable enough, but I don't see the Scriptures saying it.

I don't see the sacrificial system in the old covenant because the sacrificial system predates the old covenant by about 3,000 years. In fact, it was a part of the new covenant Christ made with Adam and Eve. And most scholars date the story of Job to some time between the flood and Abraham, so then the story of Job would be about 400-500 years before the old covenant. Besides, the old covenant was about the 10 commandment law, not the sacrificial law.

Ej, the ten commandments predate the old covenant also, do they not? They are eternal. When the sacrificial law was implemented is not an issue. Even though the sanctuary and its services were much more involved and given at the same time the law was given engraved on stone to Israel. The old covenant was "obey and live." It was not restricted to the ten commandment law. It included all of the law given to Israel at Sinai.

Quote
When God told Job to pray for his three friends, it was so that they would comprehend the sacrifice God told them to make. Job's prayers were that his friends would understand what they had done to Christ, that they would be brought to repentance, a repentance that Job already experienced.
That's a reasonable answer, yet again, I don't find that explanation in any of the verses. If you are saying that Job repented in chapter 42, then it doesn't seem fair that God didn't give Job's three friends a chance to repent as well.

God did give his three friends an opportunity to repent. God's Spirit was contending with them. That did not work, so He sent, as He often does, one who has removed the beam from his own eye to help the sinner repent. Elihu reproved the three friends, did he not? And, they did not repent. Now, are you saying God was unfair because He did not go to them personally?  We are the clay, He is the potter. God does as He sees is best. God loved the three friends, but He had much more invested in Job. Job had responded to God in such a manner, none were like him in the whole Earth. And, was God unfair by not blessing any of Job's four friends as much as He did Job?  We are entering the area where Job went astray. God is perfectly fair. We may not understand, but He is.
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colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #54 on: December 17, 2016, 02:24:43 PM »

We must not equate inheriting a fallen nature with transgressing God's law.  Some blur those two things. Guilt occurs when one chooses to sin. We do believe in original sin.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #55 on: December 17, 2016, 03:28:02 PM »
"Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. Therefore we see that those who claim to be led of God, and go right away from Him and His law, do not search the Scriptures. But the Lord will lead His people; for He says that His sheep will follow if they hear His voice, but a stranger will they not follow. Then it becomes us to thoroughly understand the Scriptures. And we will not have to inquire whether others have the truth, for it will be seen in their characters."  {FW 56.1}
Transgression of God's law is definitely part of the definition of sin.  However one can "keep" the law and still sin.

Romans 14:23 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". 
 

Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2016, 03:33:53 PM »
Amen, Ulicia. On the other hand, if one is sinning by his unbelief, then he cannot really keep the law. The commandment reaches to the intent of the heart. It may be kept outwardly, but as Jesus explained, one is guilty by God's standard if his heart is not right. He judges the heart. "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:27.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2016, 03:40:55 PM »

We must not equate inheriting a fallen nature with transgressing God's law.

I was not, cp. I was merely pointing out that when one separates from God, he has no power to do anything but sin.
Quote
We do believe in original sin.

I thought original sin was a Roman Catholic teaching having to do with Mary being holy so Jesus could be holy. What has that to do with the fallen nature of man? The Bible teaches we come into the world separated from God with a fallen nature incapable of doing any good thing until converted. Then, we must remain partakers of God's divine nature in order to keep from sinning. It is Christ that has power to not sin, not man. We must be born of His Spirit or we will sin.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2016, 04:37:21 PM »
"Now, we want to understand what sin is--that it is the transgression of God's law. This is the only definition given in the Scriptures. Therefore we see that those who claim to be led of God, and go right away from Him and His law, do not search the Scriptures. But the Lord will lead His people; for He says that His sheep will follow if they hear His voice, but a stranger will they not follow. Then it becomes us to thoroughly understand the Scriptures. And we will not have to inquire whether others have the truth, for it will be seen in their characters."  {FW 56.1}
Transgression of God's law is definitely part of the definition of sin.  However one can "keep" the law and still sin.

Romans 14:23 "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". 
 


If one is sinning he is not keeping the law. Keeping the law is keeping it inwardly as well as on the surface.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2016, 04:39:38 PM »
Amen, Ulicia. On the other hand, if one is sinning by his unbelief, then he cannot really keep the law. The commandment reaches to the intent of the heart. It may be kept outwardly, but as Jesus explained, one is guilty by God's standard if his heart is not right. He judges the heart. "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." Matthew 5:27.
Agree!  Sin goes deeper than just the act of transgression, it includes the intent of the heart and unless our motives and desires are aligned with God's will, all the outward efforts of law-keeping have not driven sin out of our lives.  God must be allowed to write His law upon our hearts as well as our minds, renewing our hearts and minds.
That was the basis of Satan's charge in the book of Job.  He was saying -- Job isn't serving you because he believes You and Your law are good and holy, no one would inflict that law upon themselves unless they had ulterior motives of some kind.  Job  is just doing it gain your blessings, take away the blessings he won't have any desire for your law or to serve you, etc.   

Quote from: Richard Myers
I thought original sin was a Roman Catholic teaching having to do with Mary being holy so Jesus could be holy. What has that to do with the fallen nature of man? The Bible teaches we come into the world separated from God with a fallen nature incapable of doing any good thing until converted. Then, we must remain partakers of God's divine nature in order to keep from sinning. It is Christ that has power to not sin, not man. We must be born of His Spirit or we will sin.
Yes, the Catholic teaching of original sin is quite different from the Biblical teaching of original sin. 
Through Adam's fall we all inherit a sinful nature,  and death is our lot.  If it were not for our Redeemer, the first death would be the eternal death for all.

Romans 5:12   Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:17   For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
1 Cor 5:17   For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)