Author Topic: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind  (Read 4931 times)

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colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2016, 03:11:55 PM »
   
  If Job truly condemned God ( as we typically use the word)  then basically he did similarly as his wife suggested. I have yet to see a verse where Job did that.

condemn -( rasha) = wrong, to disturb, condemn, make trouble, vex etc..

I'm not trying to be difficult but to understand the intent and meaning of the conversation.
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Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2016, 04:06:34 PM »
No, I don't think so, cp.  Satan did succeed in causing Job to sin, but Job did not curse God. We do not read that, nor did Elihu or God reprove Job for cursing God.  We may read God's Words as they are written. Job was self righteous and began defending himself at God's expense. He was feeling sorry for himself and did not give the glory to God, but instead tells us what great things he had done before his trial began.

There is no reason to try to translate God's reproof into something that would darken God's Words. Job was strong, he was perfect, but we do not believe one cannot fall. Because he was perfect does not keep him from sinning in the future. He was not ready for translation.   Job sinned.
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JimB

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2016, 06:28:06 PM »

Tuesday December 6


NO! Job did not speak "'right' about God in contrast to these other men" until he repented. We cannot continue to listen to a perversion of the truth. When God said Job had spoken "right" it had nothing to do with the Earth or anything God is saying about Job's ignorance. The "right" that Job had spoken came after the rebuke, not before. The "right" that Job spoke in verse 42:7 was his repentance. Read it in context.


Richard, thanks for pointing this out. It's obvious to me now but in the past I couldn't reconcile what I saw coming from Job and this verse that Job had spoken right. Whenever I read that verse my mind immediately went back to everything that he had said in the past. And I totally looked over the current situation. This makes so much better sense.
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Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2016, 05:41:30 AM »
Jim, it was not without design that your mind was misled. It is the result of God's Word being darkened by man. Those who teach Job did not sin, and Elihu was arrogant, have done the same thing Job and his three friends did, twisted the truth. I was guilty of the same. And, as bad as it is, look at God's servant, Job, who had been the "perfect" man until he let loose of His Savior. We ought not let the fact that even Job and Moses sinned after knowing God so personally, diminish the gravity of our sin in perverting God's Word. Look at the results Satan has achieved in the past by darkening God's Word.  He so perverted the plan of salvation that Israel put to death their own Messiah. Today, the gospel has been so twisted that many think they are "rich and increased with goods" but know not that they are "wretched and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."

Through the false teaching in the Book of Job, many professing Christians have been led away from the gospel truth. It is amazing what the perversion of the Book has accomplished. The first lesson God would have us learn involves the "great controversy" between Christ and Satan. Satan charged God with being unfair because He demands obedience to His law. He then says it is impossible to keep God's law. God allows Satan to attend the meeting in heaven because He is going to present before Satan and the universe (the Adams of all the unfallen worlds) the evidence that man can perfectly keep His law. "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil." Job 1:1.

This truth has been perverted to say that Job was not perfect. That none but Christ are perfect. Amazing that most of Christianity rejects the power of grace to keep from sinning. Then, Satan has not quit there. He then takes the opposite side of truth and perverts it. Even though he would have us believe Job was not perfectly keep the law, he then has twisted the truth in the Book of Job to say that Job did not sin after being attacked by his three friends. He is so clever that many, even when reading God's Words directed to Job, rebuking his sin of condemning God and being self righteous, believe Job did not sin.

So, Jim, your mind was led in such a way that you naturally thought the "right" that Job had spoken was not in repentance, but in the words that were actually "wrong" words that had been Job's attempt to justify himself.

The darkening of God's Word in the Book of Job is a very clever work hatched from below. Satan failed in winning the battle to get Job to curse God, but he never gives up. When he succeeded in getting Job to let go of Christ, he then had the opportunity to lead God's own people, modern day Israel, away from the truth that man can keep the law perfectly, and when we sin, we are under condemnation. It is most amazing how very clever his is, and how Laodicean God's church is here at the end of time. We have a Savior who not only can keep Job and us from sinning but, is merciful to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, no matter who in the church teaches otherwise.

There are other lessons in the Book, but these are the most important. Some wonder why God allows bad things to happen to "good" people. In the Book of Job we find that God does not allow Satan a free hand to do as He wished. He is not allowed to go beyond a certain point in hurting "good" people. Job was "good" as long as Christ was enthroned upon his heart. And, look at what happened to him. But, notice that Satan charged God with protecting all Job had. God then allowed Satan to do what he had not been able to do in the past. This is a revelation of the absolute control God has in this world. Nothing happens that God does not allow. So, yes, God set up the situation with Job for a reason. He knew Job was going to fall. But, man is given a period of probation wherein he has temporal life. Satan could not take Job's life when he fell from grace. We have a Savior who mediates between us and God. He will forgive our sins if we will come to repentance. Job was not killed before he could repent.

Where in Scripture do we see such an example of the probation granted to man, where we see Satan being restricted so very well? And, again this has not been taught in our lesson. We have set before us and example that ought to open the eyes of so very many as to the importance of going to the Bible to study for ourselves. If we trust in man to do our study, we shall remain in a blind and lost state. Jesus is coming soon. We must depend upon Christ to teach us. God sends teachers, but the true teacher sent from God points man to Christ and His Word. We need Jesus all of the time in order to do any good thing. This is our great need. Jesus stands at the door of many hearts wanting in. Let us open the door today that He might cleanse us from our pride and selfishness. He will allow us to be afflicted that we might turn to Him with the whole heart. And, when He has the whole heart, He empowers us to keep His law that He might have witnesses that He can keep us from sin. And, now we know why God allows bad things to happen to "good" people. God is so very good!!
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colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2016, 12:01:17 PM »
Richard, it is not my intention to darken God's Word by reinterpreting the Bible. When we look at verses from the Bible that use the word "hell" for instance , we look at the original language to get a better understanding of the what the word means. The word "condemn" has several variations of meaning in Websters. The word for "rasha" also has a variation of definitions one being condemn, but there are others that give us a better understanding of what the word means. Typically we use the word "condemn" to signify a need for punishment such as "he is condemned to hell". If we are not careful we can easily make "condemn" synonymous with "cursing God." After all, cursing God is as much an attitude as it is using bad language. My concern is that it is very easily to exaggerate the meaning of the word " condemn" as used in the verse. I do not believe that Job condemned God in the manner that we typically use the word today. There is a danger in making Job innocent. There is also a danger in "condemning" Job beyond what God intended. I'm ok with "condemn" as we understand how the word is used. It might be good to look at the various definitions of the word according to Websters and seek to find the best definition.

con·demn   /kənˈdem/

verb

verb: condemn; 3rd person present: condemns; past tense: condemned; past participle: condemned; gerund or present participle: condemning

1. express complete disapproval of, typically in public; censure.
"fair-minded people declined to condemn her on mere suspicion"

synonyms: censure, criticize, denounce, revile, blame, chastise, berate, reprimand, rebuke, reprove, take to task, find fault with; More
informalslam, blast, lay into;  formalcastigate


"he condemned the suspended players"


2. sentence (someone) to a particular punishment, especially death.
"the rebels had been condemned to death"

synonym - sentence
 
damned, doomed, lost, condemned to hell;
censured, faulted, convicted;

literary accursed


"a condemned construction site"

•officially declare (something, especially a building) to be unfit for use.
"the pool has been condemned as a health hazard"

synonyms: declare unfit, declare unsafe
"the house has been condemned"


•prove or show the guilt of.
"she could see in his eyes that her stumble had condemned her"

synonyms: incriminate, implicate; archaicinculpate
"her mistake had condemned her"

(of circumstances) force (someone) to endure something unpleasant or undesirable.
"the physical ailments that condemned him to a lonely childhood"


synonyms: doom, destine, damn; More

Personally as I view Job in the story I see the definitions listed in blue more appropriate than those listed in red. I did not attempt to categorize every definition or synonym  but just a few. It is good to seek to understand the intent and meaning of words as they have more than one connotation.


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Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2016, 04:53:02 PM »
The book of Job is an excellent book depicting the Great Controversy. 

While I agree that Elihu was right in correcting both Job and his three friends, I also tend to feel there have been things attributed to Job that have gone "too far".

Job did not condemn God, though He did question God as to WHY? -- Why was he, Job, suffering so much, why was God silent, when Job was so yearning to hear from Him?  Why did it seem like God was now his enemy?   Why was God bringing all this upon him?

Job, like his friends, was a man of his culture -- the belief was firmly entrenched that if one lived a good life, God would bless, if one lived a sinful life, God would punish.  Job, to his knowledge had faithfully followed, and worshipped God as best he knew how.     So he couldn't understand WHY everything had gone so terribly wrong for him.  His friends were sure he must have some terrible hidden sins for God to be punishing him so severally.

Both sides were looking at this whole trial from a wrong premise.

One of Job's questions was concerning his sins -- why hadn't God forgiven him?  He says to God:

13:22   Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me. 
 13:23   How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin. 
 13:24   Wherefore do You hide your face, and hold me for thine enemy? 
 13:25   Wilt thou break a leaf driven to and fro? and wilt thou pursue the dry stubble? 
 13:26   For You write bitter things against me, and make me to possess the iniquities of my youth. 


It's true that Job does not understand a lot of things.   It is true that Job is challenging God.  He is saying things that are not correct.
Yet in all his perplexity, we find shining through some strong statements of clinging trust in God.

Job is going through some pretty tough times.   Not only the lose of flocks, herds, children and health, but also the lose of respect, reputation, and dignity.  He is being accused and condemned by his friends and his enemies are taking advantage of his misfortunes to taunt him (see Job 30)

Yes, God chides Job for almost losing his faith in the forgiveness and mercy of God.
Yes, God chides Job for thinking his good behavior should have earned him merits with God, and that God should have protected him from such trouble.

But there is something more concerning the issues of the great controversy that God reveals in the end of the book of Job;
something I haven't heard much in any of the discussions about these lessons.

I'll share it in my next post. 

 




Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2016, 05:17:03 PM »
Ulicia, good to hear your thoughts. Can we add a few other reproofs God gave to Job? Job not only condemned God, but he disannulled His judgment. And, God tells us why he did so.

"Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me..."
"Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct Him?" 
"he that reproveth God, let him answer it."


Job also perverted the truth. When Job accused God of afflicting him, he understood this was not just. Thus, he called God "unjust". This is the work of Satan in "the great controversy." I don't know why this is hard for the church to see. We have the great controversy spelled out in detail. And, if we want to see the character of Job, let us not judge him by this one instance. That is not right. Job fell. He sinned. We cannot serve two masters. When one is outside of Christ, shall we attribute good to him? How very wrong is this?

Let's look at what has not been said in the lessons about the character of Job. He was perfect. Shall we just skip over the importance of this? What does this mean in the context of "the great controversy"? I see none want to address this as important. Yet, it just why God challenged Satan with the example of Job. Many have taken Satan's side in his argument that man cannot keep God's law. Here we see God allowing Satan into heaven and the meeting of all of the "Adams" of the unfallen worlds. Why? To show the universe God is fair. His law can be kept by fallen humans. And, the character of Job has not been addressed where it ought to be. It is not when Job fell that we ought to saying how good was Job, but when in Christ. Look at what grace in the heart over time can do for a converted man living in sinful flesh.

Job lost all he owned and all of his family except his wife who Satan left because he could use her to discourage her husband. But, even though he suffered more than any I know, what was Job's response? Murmuring and complaining, condemning God, and self righteousness? No! none of this. He had a strong hold on Christ. "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD." 1:21. Who can say they have this Christian character, or know someone like Job? Then, we see Satan is a liar. Man can keep God's law perfectly, even though many will twist this to say otherwise.

But, it does not stop here. When a man loves God supremely for as long as Job did, he learns to deal with suffering. Job did not arrive at this character without many trials. The lesson was wrong when it said life had been easy for Job until these trials came upon him. No. Character like Job's is developed over time amid much strong tribulation. Job had learned to "glory in tribulation". He knew if he would keep his eyes on Christ, he could weather what ever God allowed to come upon him. He knew God answered prayer.

Then, the warfare stepped up. Satan in wanting to prove Job could not keep God's law from the heart, said that Job was only doing this for selfish reasons. That if he were himself in physical pain, he would curse God. So, God allowed this. Job was in intense agony. Do you know anyone who has been so afflicted in such a short period of time as was Job? What was their response? What was Job's character when this next trial came upon him? Before say, let's remember Satan was holding one more surprise for Job, his fallen wife. Satan has made the challenge that Job would curse God. So, he put into her mouth to tell her husband to curse God and die. Now, what did the man whom God pointed to as the "perfect" servant have to say about is great trial?
"Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

We ought to spend the whole quarter on just the character of Job. He was God's witness to the whole universe. And, there was still a Mediator to forgiven Job his sin. Like Moses after him, his repentance was quick and deep when God reproved him. That we also would have a character such as God's servant Job.

Such love for God! Such character! Where are the false teachers who deny the power of grace to keep one from sin? They refuse to acknowledge "the great controversy" is being revealed in the Book of Job in this context. They do not see when Job sinned, he was sustaining the argument of Satan when he said God was unjust.



Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2016, 05:49:37 PM »
The Great Controversy revealed --

Going back to the beginning of the book we see this whole story has universal applications.   The Sons of God (representatives from the unfallen worlds in the universe) are all coming together to meet with God.  Satan comes as well, claiming to be the representative of earth.  There is a challenge to God's character. 

All heaven is watching this ordeal.  They see Satan's malice.  No sooner does God lift the restraint upon him, then Satan wrecks havoc in the life of Job.  With bated breath they watch Job, and hear him utter, "though God slay me, yet will I trust Him".  What must they be thinking as they watch Satan do his utmost to destroy Job, not just in the first sweeps of destruction and ruined health, but also through the words and actions of people around Job, for there was NO ONE who actually helped Job in these tremendous trials --as they watch Job struggling to understand and make sense out of all this?

Heavenly beings knew what was going on, Job did not know what was going on, he only knew his whole life had suddenly collapsed.

It was the utmost test. 

The question we ask -- Did Job pass the test he was put through?


When God spoke through the whirlwind, what did He reveal?

Yes, in the first part, God did strip Job of any self righteousness.   Job recognized this and fell down in repentance.


But there was much more.
God was showing Job that He was the All Mighty Creator. 

And more -- God showed Job who the real terror maker was!
Most people say that Satan somehow isn't mentioned again in the book, but that is not correct.   Satan is exposed, only under a different name.

Read Job 41, visualize the creature described and you will see a dragon.

The Leviathan in scripture is a symbol of God's arch enemy.
 Leviathan is none other than the dragon of Revelation 12. He is "King of the proud". (Job 41:34) He is the dragon of the "sea" stirring things up to bring forth the proud and ruthless conquerors and emperors, who seek to dominate the earth with their power. (As in Daniel 7, and Rev. 13).

Leviathan (Satan) is a created being, like all the rest of creation, but he is mighty, and has a heart of stone, no mere human can tame him, or control him. When he raises up himself, the mighty are afraid.  No warrior can defeat him. But he is a created being nonetheless, dependent upon God for his very life, and God CAN put a leash on him and restrain him, yet he is allowed to "play in the "sea", (Psalms 104:26) of humanity, causing strife and commotion for a time.

It was satan who brought the accusations against God in the beginning of the book of Job, and God does in the end reveal Himself to be far greater than this Leviathan, even if humans can't control this dragon. Only God can bind the dragon and throw him in the bottomless pit. (Rev. 20:2)
 It is only to God that people can flee and find safety from this monster Leviathan.

Isaiah 27:1 assures us that God's arm and sword " shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Yes, Revelation 12 tells us  that dragon, that old serpent, the devil and satan will do his worst to destroy Christ's followers (and destroy Christ Himself if he could) but Christ is the victor!
 And through Christ we too can be victors (Rev. 12:11)

Leviathan is that multi-headed dragon of Rev. 12.
Ps. 74:14 talks about the multi heads of Leviathan.

In Ps. 74 Leviathan worked through pharaoh, that "proud prince" but God broke his power and delivered Israel.  The Exodus of Israel, their deliverance from their enemies, and their passage through the Red Sea, and the destruction of their enemies in its waters were figures of the liberation of mankind from the dominion and bondage of satan, and of his overthrow by Christ in the Red Sea of His blood.

This is the grand hope and assurance in regards to unjust suffering in the book of Job
.

 Though an enemy stalks through the human race, God is stronger, God is in control, the dragon will be destroyed.
 He is already cast down, and he will be destroyed.

Job at last understood,
Job 42:2  I know that You can do everything.  I know and confess that Thou alone canst save me; for Thou art Almighty; and I confess that I cannot deliver myself (see 41:13) and I repent and abhor myself in dust and ashes (vs. 6)
God’s questions had revealed to Job that his present afflictions were assaults from his spiritual Enemy, whom God had permitted to try him, and whom he could not conquer by his own strength and whom God, and God alone, could enable him to overcome. 





colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2016, 07:30:56 PM »

Then, the warfare stepped up. Satan in wanting to prove Job could not keep God's law from the heart, said that Job was only doing this for selfish reasons. That if he were himself in physical pain, he would curse God. So, God allowed this. Job was in intense agony. Do you know anyone who has been so afflicted in such a short period of time as was Job? What was their response? What was Job's character when this next trial came upon him? Before say, let's remember Satan was holding one more surprise for Job, his fallen wife. Satan has made the challenge that Job would curse God. So, he put into her mouth to tell her husband to curse God and die. Now, what did the man whom God pointed to as the "perfect" servant have to say about is great trial?
"Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?"

It is interesting that also the narrator , probably Moses, said that God brought "evil" upon Job. Job 42:11- In this verse the same word for "evil"- rah is used as is used in the verse that is quoted above " Shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?" Job 2:10  The same "evil"= rah is also used by Moses in Ex. 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil ( rah) which He thought to do unto His people.  Are we to believe that God does evil as we typically use the word ? Not me !  Job sinned because He thought that God brought calamity, distress,  affliction upon Job not because He thought God brought "wickedness." "rah" is not the only option that could have been used. There are 4 other Hebrew words used in the OT for "evil." Three of them include as a definition "wickedness." Neither Job or Moses used those other Hebrew words which included "wickedness" as a definition when referring to God.


evil = rah = adversity, affliction, evil, bad, calamity, distress, hurt, sorrow, trouble

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ejclark

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2016, 08:59:34 PM »
Has anyone posted this quote from Mrs. White before?

Quote
Seemingly forsaken of heaven and earth, yet holding fast his faith in God and his consciousness of integrity, in anguish and perplexity he cried:
     "My soul is weary of my life."
     "O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave,
      That Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be
           past,
      That Thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and
           remember me!" Job 10:1; 14:13.
      "Behold, I cry out of wrong, but I am not heard:
      I cry for help, but there is no judgment. . . .
      He hath stripped me of my glory,
      And taken the crown from my head. . . .
      My kinsfolk have failed,
      And my familiar friends have forgotten me. . . .
      They whom I loved are turned against me. . . .
      Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends;
      For the hand of God hath touched me."
     "Oh that I knew where I might find Him,
      That I might come even to His seat! . . .
      Behold, I go forward, but He is not there;
      And backward, but I cannot perceive Him:
      On the left hand, where He doth work, but I cannot
           behold Him:
      He hideth Himself on the right hand, that I cannot see
           Him.
      But He knoweth the way that I take;
      When He hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold."
     "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him."
     "I know that my Redeemer liveth,
      And that He shall stand up at the last upon the earth:
      And after my skin hath been destroyed, this shall be,
      Even from my flesh shall I see God:
      Whom I shall see for myself,
      And mine eyes shall behold, and not as a stranger."
          Job 19:7-21, R.V.; 23:3-10, R.V.; 13:15; 19:25-27,
          R.V., margin.  {Ed 155.7}
     According to his faith, so was it unto Job. "When He hath tried me," he said, "I shall come forth as gold." Job 23:10. So it came to pass. By his patient endurance he vindicated his own character, and thus the character of Him whose representative he was. And "the Lord turned the captivity of Job: . . . also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. . . . So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning." Job 42:10-12.  {Ed 156.1} 

Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2016, 05:14:55 AM »
Thanks for sharing, ej.  How do you reconcile this with the reproof from Elihu and God?  Do you see "the great controversy" in the first two chapters?

Ulicia, thank you for pointing out "the great controversy" is indeed involved. What is the foundation of the controversy between Christ and Satan?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2016, 05:58:28 AM »
The book of Job is an excellent book depicting the Great Controversy. 

While I agree that Elihu was right in correcting both Job and his three friends, I also tend to feel there have been things attributed to Job that have gone "too far".

Job did not condemn God, though He did question God as to WHY? -- Why was he, Job, suffering so much, why was God silent, when Job was so yearning to hear from Him?  Why did it seem like God was now his enemy?   Why was God bringing all this upon him?

Job, like his friends, was a man of his culture -- the belief was firmly entrenched that if one lived a good life, God would bless, if one lived a sinful life, God would punish.  Job, to his knowledge had faithfully followed, and worshipped God as best he knew how.     So he couldn't understand WHY everything had gone so terribly wrong for him.  His friends were sure he must have some terrible hidden sins for God to be punishing him so severally.

Ulicia, when God rebuked Job for "condemning Him", it was in the context of the Job's motives for doing so. His sin was similar to the sin of Moses when Moses sinned at the end of his life. Moses had the lesson of Job's sin before him when he sinned. His repentance was quick and deep also. What did Job repent of? And does repentance indicate Job knew he sinned? If if Job knew he sinned, they why are so many intent on arguing against him having sinned?

Let us listen again to one of God's rebukes:  "Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.  Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" Job 40:7,8.  It is always interesting when the truth is presented, with the reason why following, and even though the reason is given, the truth is rejected. We see the same clear presentation of truth being rejected even though the reason for the truth is given in 1 Timothy verses 12-15.

2:12   But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 
 2:13   For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 
 2:14   And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 
 2:15   Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 


While there is misunderstanding about women being silent, there is not question about women usurping the authority of man. The rebellion in the church does not address what Paul has stated, ignoring the reason why women are not to usurp the authority of man. And, Paul did not come to this understanding independent of Scripture. He was only presenting the truth found in Genesis just after the fall. I do not want to change the subject, but only point out that when the reason is given for the presentation of a truth, it is often ignored as if it meant nothing.

God Himself is rebuking Job. This is not human wisdom. And, God says precisely why Job condemned Him. So that he might be righteous. 

Ulicia, I don't have a problem with anyone defending Job's character. That begins in chapter one, and I have not seen it in the context of the great controversy. This in itself reveals a lack spiritual discernment. It was because of the attack on God's character that He allowed Satan into the meeting to reveal to the universe just how Satan was wrong about man not being able to perfectly keep God's law. And, this attack on the need to keep God's law is not restricted to Satan, but it is now being preached from the pulpits of God's church. So, therefore, there is no acknowledgement of the evidence God has presented  before the Sons of God at the heavenly meeting. How very sad. Let us be faithful to address the important matters revealed in the Book of Job. And, after acknowledging the great controversy involved in the perfection of Job's character, how about the important lesson on the revelation of a period of probation granted to man? Why is this not addressed? There are many in the church that do not understand God has kept us alive every day by not allowing Satan to kill us. They think that Satan is not involved in the many of the tragedies that take life away every day all around us.

God had put a hedge about Job's life, his family, his possessions, and his workers. God does the same for us. Else Satan would have put an end to our existence long ago. And, God kept Satan from making Job sick, and from taking his life. But, when God allowed it, Job was attacked personally. Therefore we are given a view of the absolute control God exerts in this world. God did not afflict Job, but He certainly removed His protection of Job and his family, except for the taking of Job's life. God's people need to rightly divide the Word. God has promised He will not allow those who are abiding in Him and have Christ in the heart, to be tempted beyond what we can bear. His promises never fail, yet in Job's case, he was tempted beyond what he could bear. It was not because the promise failed, but because the promise has a condition. If it did not, then there would be no sin. When Job sinned, he was not abiding in Christ. His heart was not fully given to Christ. Self was alive and his thoughts were on his trials, not on Christ.

I like the fact that Job did not curse God even when his hold let go of God. It was the character the grace of God had imparted to Job. Another important lesson not being addressed. Character is not measured by one good deed or evil deed, but by the trend of the life. Even when condemning God and lifting himself up, he dared not curse God.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2016, 06:10:45 AM »

Job sinned or else he would have had nothing to repent of. We just need to be careful that because of a lack of understanding of the words of Scripture we do not exaggerate Job's sin into something beyond what it was.
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Richard Myers

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2016, 07:48:14 AM »
Yes, cp. That is a good start. Now we can begin to learn the lessons God has given us in the Book of Job. Acknowledging Job sinned is almost impossible for most. They lean on tradition rather than the Word of God. It is so very sad to see God Himself rebuking Job, and His Word being darkened by God's own people.

The lessons begin in chapter one with the perfection of Job's character in the context of "the great controversy." Another amazing reality, that it is skipped over as if it is of no importance. Even though God Himself is pointing to Job so that we might understand Satan has lied about the impossibility of keeping God's law perfectly. Who will defend God's character? The truths have been entrusted to God's church. We are responsible for these truths. God's law can be kept perfectly, but only by those who have given the whole heart to Christ.

Here is what happens to some, like Job, who reflect and defend the character of God.

  The murder of Abel was the first example of the enmity that God had declared would exist between the serpent and the seed of the woman--between Satan and his subjects and Christ and His followers. Through man's sin, Satan had gained control of the human race, but Christ would enable them to cast off his yoke. Whenever, through faith in the Lamb of God, a soul renounces the service of sin, Satan's wrath is kindled. The holy life of Abel testified against Satan's claim that it is impossible for man to keep God's law. When Cain, moved by the spirit of the wicked one, saw that he could not control Abel, he was so enraged that he destroyed his life. And wherever there are any who will stand in vindication of the righteousness of the law of God, the same spirit will be manifested against them. It is the spirit that through all the ages has set up the stake and kindled the burning pile for the disciples of Christ. But the cruelties heaped upon the follower of Jesus are instigated by Satan and his hosts because they cannot force him to submit to their control. It is the rage of a vanquished foe. Every martyr of Jesus has died a conqueror. Says the prophet, "They overcame him ["that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan"] by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death." Revelation 12:11, 9.  PP 77.
 

We must see the great controversy between Christ and Satan in the Book of Job in the same way we see it in the death of Abel. Satan does not want humanity to understand the plan of salvation. He is happy in having deceived Israel and modern Israel as to what it means to be a Christian. Misrepresenting Christ is what he wants, especially by those who profess to be keeping the commandments of God, or least vowed to.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of His Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

ejclark

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2016, 12:48:22 PM »
Thanks for sharing, ej.  How do you reconcile this with the reproof from Elihu and God?  Do you see "the great controversy" in the first two chapters?

In our Sabbath School class we have been having some really good discussions.

We discussed how Job 38:2, though spoken to Job, God was talking about Elihu.
Job 38:2   Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 
The previous 6 chapters was Elihu alone speaking. No where else in the book of Job do we see or hear anything about him. So in context with the flow of the book its self, 38:2 was God speaking to Job about Elihu.

We see the Great Controversy in the first two books of Job and we believe that the Lord is revealing that realm to Job from chapters 38 on, explaining to him as only God can that his affliction had a lot broader implication to the universe that Job was not presently seeing or understanding.

One of the conclusions we have come to is that Job was not self-righteous. He was not perfect in our eyes, but he was perfect in God's eyes because Job relied completely on God for his salvation and not on any of his own works. That doesn't mean pre chapter 38 that Job knew all he needed to know, but he was living his life perfectly in the eyes of God according to what he did know and according to what he knew God expected of him and nothing his friends were telling him could prove to him otherwise. Previously Job had admitted (chapter 23:10) that he was experiencing a fire of affliction for his deeper purification.

Job is a type of the Remnant who will live to see Jesus come in the clouds of glory. As Job could not have prepared himself except by faith for the affliction he experienced, we who meet Jesus second coming without seeing death will have to face an unknown affliction as well, one we can only prepare for by faith. God is proving to the rest of the universe through Job, and then on a larger scale through the Remnant, that God knows our hearts well enough that He knows who He can bring to heaven and save from sin, and not have the controversy arise a second time.

Pastor Sean Brizendine

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2016, 07:22:40 PM »
Thanks for sharing, ej.  How do you reconcile this with the reproof from Elihu and God?  Do you see "the great controversy" in the first two chapters?

In our Sabbath School class we have been having some really good discussions.

We discussed how Job 38:2, though spoken to Job, God was talking about Elihu.
Job 38:2   Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 
The previous 6 chapters was Elihu alone speaking. No where else in the book of Job do we see or hear anything about him. So in context with the flow of the book its self, 38:2 was God speaking to Job about Elihu.

ejclark, I noticed that you expressed a view of Elihu being reproved by God by God speaking to Job, but this does not fit the context of the passage itself if we look at the first three verses of Job 38:

1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.


If God is calling Elihu to repent through Job, it is inconsistent with the book of Job itself, for Elihu is not referred to as having needed to repent. He had spoken as God's Spirit moved him:

Job 32:18 For I am full of matter, the spirit within me constraineth me.

Job 33:3-4
3 My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
4 The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


Elihu spoke to Job what God would also speak to Job, as concerned Job being self-righteous:

Job 34:4-5
4 Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
5 For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.


God gave Job a rebuke, not Elihu, in these words:

"Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?" (Job 40, verse eight).

God loved Job so much that rather than reprove him directly, He inspired Elihu to first speak, a young man who waited patiently to speak. Job had nothing to say to Elihu. Job loved his Redeemer, Jesus, but he had fallen into a plague spot in his character. It is because Job endured Elihu and God's rebuke and humbly and deeply repented that we can see the power of the words that you earlier quoted from the Spirit of Prophecy:

According to his faith, so was it unto Job. "When He hath tried me," he said, "I shall come forth as gold." Job 23:10. So it came to pass. By his patient endurance he vindicated his own character, and thus the character of Him whose representative he was. And "the Lord turned the captivity of Job: . . . also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before. . . . So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning." Job 42:10-12.  {Ed 156.1}

Was David a representative of Christ? Did Moses represent the Lord before the Israelites? Did Job also have a representative role before the onlooking universe in the great controversy? The answer to all these questions is "yes" as we see their life probation worked out in salvation history. But here is where we have possibly misunderstood character and strength of character. Moses sinned and repented, and David's great sin with Bathsheba was recorded (as well as his repentance) that we might also realize the power of grace to transform character. We need to keep our Redeemer in the center of our understanding in the book of Job. It was Job's Redeemer that spoke to him out of the whirlwind, for Christ is the medium of communication between God and man (even before Christ was born as a babe in Bethlehem). It was Christ's character that had been misrepresented by Job. (He became self-righteous after hearing the speeches of his "three friends" in an attempt to prove that he had not sinned; but he went so far as to call himself righteous, rather than to acknowledge righteousness can only come from his Redeemer, and be experienced by the human agent in an experience of abiding in Him). Christ's character was also misrepresented by the other three friends (who wrongly sought to accuse Job of sin just because he was facing adversity). Yet the Lord does not speak a word of reproof to Elihu, nor call him to repentance. It was the Spirit of God that gave Elihu the words to reprove Job, and then Christ would follow up the reproof that did succeed in bringing Job to a deep repentance:

"Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." (Job 42:6)

As we reflect upon strength of character, is a strong character only evinced by one who does not sin, or also by a man who sinned and through divine grace has been made "perfect" (Job 1:1)? The book of Job ends where it began: with a perfect man named Job, but in the heart of the book of Job is the Redeemer, who bore Job's sin and who gave Job the GIFT of repentance:

"Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins" (Acts 5:31).

As we realize that Job's character was such that he was willing to repent of his sin, and to realize his deep need of a selfless spirit of intercession for his three friends (Job 42:10: And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he prayed for his friends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.), we more clearly see the kind of character that Moses also developed (though he also sinned, and deeply repented). Let us recognize that God gives great tests to the perfect (those abiding in Christ by beholding His grace--the loveliness of Jesus), and then if they fail the test, they can vindicate their own character and the character of the one they are called to represent (Christ) by receiving the gift of repentance. God granted Job a period of probation in which this great controversy could be worked out. Satan's charges were refuted, and Job was brought closer to his Redeemer after his fall and repentance. It is such a revelation of grace to see how God dealt with Job!

"Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." (Job 5:11) God did not blot out Job when he sinned, nor did he permit Job to continue in his sin without a rebuke. Love rebukes!

Revelation 3:
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


God called Job to repentance from a Laodicean condition of self-righteousness to a deeply repentance, connected experience of acknowledging his need of a continually abiding Savior in the soul. We as Seventh-day Adventists need to learn the lesson. We need to have Christ abiding in the soul, and if He is not, then however great we may feel we are, though in mercy our probation remains open, God calls us to repentance--to acknowledge our continual need of Jesus. When we clearly see this need we have, we will ever give all the glory to God, and not take any glory to ourselves. We will learn to do what Job did--to repent, and intercede for others, and take our eyes off ourselves. Therein lies the victory--beholding continually the loveliness of Jesus!

Praise God for such amazing grace in the book of Job as it connects with God's grace in Christ throughout the Bible! What a consistent and loving God we see in His word!
"When we live by faith on the Son of God, the fruits of the Spirit will be seen in our lives; not one will be missing." {The Desire of Ages, 676.4}

colporteur

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2016, 08:02:43 PM »

I see some parallels of Job as a type of God's last day people in terms of his predicament. He lost his family. His friends misunderstood him. Appearances seemed against Job and he suffered a great deal. How will God's people react when it appears as though God has abandoned them ?
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2016, 09:22:20 PM »

I see some parallels of Job as a type of God's last day people in terms of his predicament. He lost his family. His friends misunderstood him. Appearances seemed against Job and he suffered a great deal. How will God's people react when it appears as though God has abandoned them ?
Yes, we have been discussing that quite often in our Sabbath School class.
It has been mentioned several times that the book of Job will be an important book to remember when this happens.   The world will be accusing God's commandment keeping people of being great sinners, and working against God and society, bringing God's wrath upon the world.  God's people will loose all the comforts this life offers and be forced to flee or end up in prison, etc etc.

Would we blame God for these hardships?
Or would we cling to Him, knowing an enemy has done it?
When it seems God is silent, will we still trust Him?
Would we KNOW our sins are all forgiven and we are cleansed by His grace?
Would our faith be like a strong rope, or would it snap?

Ulicia

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #38 on: December 11, 2016, 09:45:26 PM »
Thanks for sharing, ej.  How do you reconcile this with the reproof from Elihu and God?  Do you see "the great controversy" in the first two chapters?

In our Sabbath School class we have been having some really good discussions.

We discussed how Job 38:2, though spoken to Job, God was talking about Elihu.
Job 38:2   Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 
The previous 6 chapters was Elihu alone speaking. No where else in the book of Job do we see or hear anything about him. So in context with the flow of the book its self, 38:2 was God speaking to Job about Elihu.

Job 38:1-2   Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

It is expressly said here that the LORD answered Job.  The Lord is not answering the speech of Elihu, who had just finished speaking,  He is expressly speaking to Job.  This  guards us against the error of assigning God’s words to Elihu, it fixes them on Job.  Nor is this all, for Job himself applies them to himself.

Job 42:3   (Job answers) Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 

Job did not really understand justification and sanctification BY FAITH. 
He did believe in DOING good and living a good moral life,  yet he was on the same belief system as his friends.
Do good and be blessed.   Live in sin and be cursed.
His friends were sure his misery came because of some terrible sin in his life.
Job couldn't understand how this formula related to him for he had lived a good moral life, thus he questioned the fairness of God. 

God had to teach him about righteousness by faith.
He had to teach him about the two great hindrances to human salvation.
That is the part we don't see in lesson.

ejclark

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Re: SDA Sabbath School Lesson 11--4th Quarter 2016--Out of the Whirlwind
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2016, 05:48:56 PM »
Job 38:1-2   Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

It is expressly said here that the LORD answered Job.  The Lord is not answering the speech of Elihu, who had just finished speaking,  He is expressly speaking to Job.  This  guards us against the error of assigning God’s words to Elihu, it fixes them on Job.  Nor is this all, for Job himself applies them to himself.
Job 42:1   Then Job answered the LORD, and said, 
 42:2   I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee. 
 42:3   Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not. 
 42:4   Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. 
 42:5   I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. 
 42:6   Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. 
 42:7   And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job,
I thought Job was speaking here.

Sometimes seeing and understanding context takes more than just following who is speaking next and to whom.

Job did not really understand justification and sanctification BY FAITH. 
He did believe in DOING good and living a good moral life,  yet he was on the same belief system as his friends.
Do good and be blessed.   Live in sin and be cursed.
His friends were sure his misery came because of some terrible sin in his life.
Job couldn't understand how this formula related to him for he had lived a good moral life, thus he questioned the fairness of God. 

God had to teach him about righteousness by faith.
He had to teach him about the two great hindrances to human salvation.
That is the part we don't see in lesson.
Job 42:7   And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 
 42:8   Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job. 
 42:9   So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went, and did according as the LORD commanded them: the LORD also accepted Job. 

I find it quite interesting here that God did not require Job to offer sacrifice, and then He went further and used Job as an intercessor between Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar as a type of Christ. If Job was guilty of anything in the least amount God could not use him as an intercessor, otherwise He would be condoning sin. Specially since He wasn't asking Job to offer sacrifice for himself. From verse 8 "ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job"

Sometimes in reading some of the different verses here in the book of Job it's hard to tell just what exactly is going on between God and Job. Thankfully we can lean on the easy verses and the rock solid teachings that we easily understand from other places in Scripture to help us with the more difficult ones.