Author Topic: Church Manual Proposed Change on Changing "Minister" to "Pastor"  (Read 1643 times)

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Richard Myers

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There was a lengthy discussion on the proposal to change the term minister to pastor.  It was an interesting comment that Neil Nedley made. He said if the motion passed, there would be no need to have the discussion on Wednesday. He was speaking to the issue of women's ordination. Again, the proposal was not clearly presently to the delegates in my opinion, so there were many who appeared confused as to what would going to happen if the change went through.

It is interesting that Elizabeth Talbot was concerned about women's authority being rolled back 30 years. She has a concern in that the move to allow women to be local elders was not voted on by the GC in session, but at an annual council. They usurped the authority of the Session. This needs to be corrected. It could be brought up from the floor at this session.

The vote to allow this change was out of order from my understanding. The chair had halted previous motions saying he would like to have discussion first. He then halted discussion when Doug Batchelor moved to send the proposal back to committee. That motion passed, thus blocking the change for the day.

Talbot immediately objected on the basis of failure to follow correct rules of order. While disagreeing with her position on the proposal, I believe her to be correct in the failure of the chair to follow the rules of order. Proper motions made earlier were denied. On the other hand, even though this was improper, the time to object was prior to the vote. Talbot waited until after the vote to object. Not being an expert on the rules of order for the session, I cannot say for certain, but it appears that the chair was wrong, and that Talbot was also wrong in waiting until after the vote to bring her point of order.

The chair modified his conduct for the rest of the meeting.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: Church Manual Proposed Change on Changing "Minister" to "Pastor"
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2019, 09:04:47 AM »
 Talbot will be speaking in the WV campmeeting of which we will be attending Sabbath. Naturally I am on high alert. Last year Mike Tucker spoke and there was an agenda. This year most of the speakers are cut out of the same mold and sound much the same. The most bold and in your face speaker was Senior Pastor Markius Johns from the Philadelphia SDA church . He mixed truth with error constantly and seemed to enjoy offending people. What little SOP he quoted he misapplied. Comedy mixed with what came across to me as anger was constant. He would do things in the youth meeting such as, when a young lady r the room entered the room walking toward her seat after the meeting started Johns stopped speaking and instantly walked up to her and entered her space cutting her off from her seat. He would not say anything. She would stop and everyone would wonder what he was doing. When after hesitating a bit she would step forward he would likewise silently and instantly step forward for no other reason than to create wonder and or laughter. He intimidated to create a reaction. He did this 3-4 times before he stepped back and let her reach her seat. Totally a waste of time and to draw attention and be outlandish. Not a word spoken. It was to cause sensation through intimidation, wonder, and confusion.   

 The speaker used the story Eutychus  falling out of the window to say that too much light took all the oxygen out of the room and therefore the young man was in the window seeking fresh air and about to fall out of church. He said that as Paul stretched over the dead man we need to stretch for our youth. Apparently that includes giving them the church and whatever they think should be in the church. He quoted statistics from surveys where Catholic youth felt less restrained in the church than SDA youth. Well, that ought not be  surprising. I was Catholic for 32 years. There is essentially NO restrictions in the RCC.  One ought to expect SDA youth, especially so many worldly youth of today to view the church as more restrictive and even to restrictive.

Then there was the statement Johns made to the youth, " I don't usually allow parents in the youth meetings because the youth will not open up. But you can't tell parents anything!"   That's music to the ears of rebellious youth. There was one digression after another mingled with truth.

In one meeting Johns said in his usual flamboyant, loud and animated way, " BE KIND ! BE KIND ! BE KINNNND !   Later in the meeting he said, " I have the type of personality that you do not want to get on my bad side."  Hmmm !  Then he told that at one of his evangelistic meetings several church members were sitting up front when visitors arrived and had to stand in the back. He said to his members up front, " You all been lost for 40 years anyway so they do not need your seat !"   So, do not judge but judge a whole group as lost because they did not get up and offer their seat to visitors ?  Do those who he said was lost  include the old lady that can hardly walk ? Did that include the old man that can hardly see and did not see the visitors ?   That's kindness ?

Johns stated how we need to mentor the youth and work with them. He gave example when he gave the youth the keys of the church for a week and let them do as they wish. He played a short video but left the sound out.  The trap set drums were well used. You could see the head phones on with the heads bouncing forward. One did not need to hear the sound.

Most of pour people seemed to agree with him, some in both leadership and laity were in obvious agreement vocally and with laughter. Some were quiet trying to digest it all. John's made statements like " that's a hard pill for many to swallow" or " no one tells me what to say I say whatever I what and that takes a lot of courage" or " probably some will be offended here" or " I am about to leave and get on a plane so I can say whatever." At one point he asked" what kind of worship service should we have for a black congregation? He invited dialog so I replied, " A Godly one." That's not the answer he was looking for but I listened to his 4 meetings previous and said not a word.

There was a question and answer session just before he ended his last meeting. All the questions were either neutral or affirming the speaker. I had the very last question. The session had ended but I raised my hand and another in the congregation pointed to me so the conference president brought the mic. The question was " In your opinion pastor what is it that the churches, the churches in Babylon have to teach us that we do not already have in the SOP ?" I knew I had to present a question that left no escape hatch as this man most certainly is positioned to counter and even humiliate someone who " gets on his bad side." His answer was interesting and prefaced with " That is an excellent question." I realized that he loathes such a question but to fume at the questioner and show anger would  send a message of defeat. He answered correctly and then incorrectly making excuses and false comparisons. He answered, " not much of anything". However, he spoke of how the church in the early days received light from outside the church such as with the Millerites etc.. He kind of mumbled something about recovering that which we have lost. So, they have " not much of anything" to teach us but like with the early church we may receive light from outside the church. He directly contradicted himself and made a false comparison.  Satan has become more clever. He identifies the obvious crisis ( which he created) in the church.  He correctly identifies some aspects that need to change in the church like that of the need to be more consistent and of mentoring and equipping our youth. He even shows a few examples of that being done not revealing the more objectional aspects of his doing that, even some aspects that are good. He says that he is not recommending having a pop machine in the church ( though in another meeting he talks about approaching a youth near the pop machine). He says that he is not advocating bringing drums into the church but shows a video with the trap set well lubricated and running. He says that he is not into sports but has a superbowl Sabbath where members and he bring in football paraphernal of the Steelers and then he takes them to the Superbowl the next day. He tells the children he sees a psychiatrist regularly and is a movie goer. He tells the youth how dangerous the cell phone is and how badly he is addicted to it. Of course many of the youth want him as their pastor. Some in his conference, ( some in leadership) want him out as a pastor. However, he is having reasonably good church growth just like the mega churches howbeit nothing comparable to them in terms of numbers. There is a reasonable increase in tithe at his church. These things in the minds of many are clear proof in their minds that he is on to something. He told the youth that it was a book he read that turned his drug dealing life around and brought him into ministry, but he said he would not reveal the name of the book. That is interesting since he spoke of reading several not SDA books and said that he read 3 books in the last 3 days this week.

The conference president said that he does not agree with everything Johns said. He said that we can learn from that which was good. This is the very same premise of Johns. Listen to confusion, sort out the error and bring home and apply the good. However, Satan knows that our people do not need to swallow all the kool aid to be harmed. If they cast out 80% and adopt 20% of his position that is plenty ample until the next drinking session. It is SDA pride and a false security to think that we may listen to that which we know is error and that we cannot be affected by it. The president said he did not know that the speaker would say these things. Why would leadership not research well those who would be addressing both the adults and the youth in their meetings ?  During the last two adult meetings the youth meeting was shut down and the students were moved into the adult meeting and had reserved seats in the first few rows. What is troubling is how favorably the speaker and his message was received. Some had eyes to see but not many expressed a concern. The bright spot is that 3-4 pastors saw through it all. Most seemed both a little puzzled, pleased, and amused at the same time.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

thx4mercy

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Re: Church Manual Proposed Change on Changing "Minister" to "Pastor"
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2019, 10:38:56 AM »
CP, does your campmeeting have any solid speakers this year?

colporteur

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Re: Church Manual Proposed Change on Changing "Minister" to "Pastor"
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2019, 11:13:36 AM »
CP, does your campmeeting have any solid speakers this year?

I guess that depends on who is defining “ solid” 
.”

There are two speakers that I would call neutral.  One was a marketing lady for AWR. She spoke about stories  so she was not theological. The other was Jim Ayer. He may be solid but it’s hard to tell for sure. In years past all of his  contribution were  very exciting mission stories. In my mind he was the best speaker by far. If I were attempting to rate I would rate all of the speakers at 1-4 with Jim at 7-8.  This is the weakest line up I have ever seen
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

colporteur

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Re: Church Manual Proposed Change on Changing "Minister" to "Pastor"
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2019, 11:37:40 AM »
Alyssa Truman, Bill Payne, Peter Casillas, Chef Mark Anthony, Bernie Anderson, Marquis Johns, Dave Weigley, Teresa Kelchner, Jim Ayer, Elizabeth Talbot, Luis La Porte, and Matt and Josie Minikus.

La Porte is yet to perform. Minikus had very soft, reverent contemporary music. However, when I talked to Matt I was surprised to find that he plays drums and is pretty loose regarding music standards. Not sure why he is so low key currently. I think he and his wife have found a nitch where their soft music is very popular and at the same time not controversial. Mark Anthony is not so conservative with his cooking and diet as some may think and he uses non stick pans. Anyway the last few here are not really speakers.

Talbot and Theresa Kelchner have yet to speak and La Porte is yet to perform. I have not researched these two yet and wonder from what is printed in the paper if they are SDA.
 
"Teresa Kelchner is a Christian education advocate, chamption, ( whatever that is) and a coach. Since 2012, she has worked to build capacity with 175+ Christian schools, both large ( 1300 students) and small ( 30 students.)"

"Luis La Porte, an international singer and recording artists, began his own music ministry in 2011. Since he was  five years old, Luis has shown a great love for praising the Lord through music. Luis shares his heart, energy, and passion for recognizing the amazing life we can have when Jesus is the center."

It is difficult to have a lot of  confident in what is yet to come based off of what has transpired so far this week.

It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.