A "Measure of Faith"

[Glen]

..."God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Romans 12:3. But, this is not saving faith...

Richard, I don't follow what you're saying; that, "the measure of faith" that we are to "think soberly" about, isn't saving faith. What manner of faith is it that would cause us to not "think more highly" of ourselves than we ought?

[Richard Myers]

Without getting into a deep philosophical argument that so often happens when talking about different kinds of faith, just let me say that God has given to "every man", not just those who are truly converted, faith to believe. Even if that faith is as small as a mustard seed, it can grow into a mighty tree.  When Jesus says to come to Him and He will save us, we each have enough faith to believe Jesus may be able to help us. That is not "saving faith".  Saving faith requires a full surrender. To have saving faith we must know God well enough to trust Him with all we are and all we have. Does this help, Glen?

[Glen]

..."God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Romans 12:3. But, this is not saving faith...

...think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith... Romans 12:3

God's call to fallen mankind (each and every one of them):
...place yourself in right relation with Jesus, making His life and character your criterion. Temperence 193.3

The Believer receives Jesus Christ, the embodiment of the Law, the Love of God; He, who knows the will of the Father and has that "measure of faith" in the power of His creative WORD to fulfill that which He speaks. When God hears the prayer of the Believer, and recognizes the groaning of His own Holy Spirit mingling and bearing witness with the spirit of the Believer that the Believer is become the son of God John 1:12, that prayer is answered, the victory gained; ...he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2 Timothy 2:13 This measure of faith; this privilege of abundant life, is given to every man. This faith is not inherent in man; it is the gift of God to exercise to the saving of the soul. Each must answer for himself. Each has the privilege of "buying into" God's ideal for mankind.

...Sin must be crucified. A complete moral renovation must be wrought by the Holy Spirit. We must have the love of God, with living, abiding faith. This is the gold tried in the fire. We can obtain it only of Christ.
Testimony Treasures Volume 2, p. 17.3

Colossians 2:
5 ...the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught:

2 Thessalonians 2:
13...because God hath from the beginning chosen (them) to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called (them) to the obtaining of the glory (character) of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ expressed in character is...the very highest education. It is the key that opens the portals of the heavenly city. This knowledge it is God’s purpose that all who put on Christ shall possess. 
Testimonies for the Church Volume 8, p. 317.4

Why should the sons and daughters of God be reluctant to pray, when prayer is the key in the hand of faith to unlock heaven’s storehouse, where are treasured the boundless resources of Omnipotence? Without unceasing prayer and diligent watching we are in danger of growing careless and of deviating from the right path. The adversary seeks continually to obstruct the way to the mercy seat, that we may not by earnest supplication and faith obtain grace and power to resist temptation.—(Steps to Christ, 93, 94.)

John 3:
15 ...whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I submit to you that the measure of faith God has dealt to every man is; indeed, saving faith.
We read in Romans 12:3 that God dealt it to every man; that, we are to think soberly about that fact; and, we may rest assured that He did it to a definite purpose, else it wouldn't have been recorded as ...holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21 -that He did. This counsel ...is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17

"Whosoever will, may come": (see Hymn by Philip P. Bliss)
It is the life and character of Jesus, by faith of our heavenly Father and by Jesus' own faith, that saves us; IF, we receive it, coming into right relation to Him; not only "in the end", but as we daily receive Him, then by faith meet each temptation; first Justification, then Sanctification.

"Only believe..." (Mark 5:36; Luke 8:50),this "believing" is His faith that works; that, moves the arm of Almighty God. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

It is by the effectual, fervent prayer (James 5:27; John 27), "the faith of Jesus"; His faith in the will and word of our heavenly Father, manifest throughout the life of Jesus that instills within every Believer spiritual life, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body 2 Corinthians 4:10, to the saving of the soul. God HAS given Jesus (Who IS THE measure, or benchmark and caliber, or degree of faith) to EACH human in this world. It is each person's choice, what each will DO with Him and the words He speaks, with the faith of Jesus Revelation 14:12 He instills as He is received.

While the Believer has "great faith" (Matthew 8:10; Luke 1:38), those who could not receive healing, or feared (Matthew 6:30;8:26;16:8; Luke 12:28; John 7:13; John 20:19), did not experience the fulness of hope and fulfillment they might have.

Ephesians 1:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
12...who first trusted in Christ.

John 6:
28 ...What shall we DO, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said...This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Man is given the privilege of working with God in the saving of his own soul. He is to receive Christ as his personal Saviour and believe in Him. Receiving and believing is his part of the contract. This means abiding in Christ, showing in Him at all times and under all circumstances a faith that works by love and purifies the soul from all defilement. Christ is the author of this faith, and He demands that it be constantly exercised. Thus we receive a constant supply of grace. Article 21, 1899.

The faith in Christ that saves the soul...trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God. Faith is manifested by works. Faith and Works, p. 52.2

The grace of Christ in the soul is represented as a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The heart imbued with the spirit of Christ... RH October 19, 1886, par. 16 

It is essential to live by every word of God, else our old nature will constantly reassert itself. It is the Holy Spirit, the redeeming grace of truth in the soul, that makes the followers of Christ one with one another, and one with God. He alone can expel enmity, envy, and unbelief. He sanctifies the entire affections. He restores the willing, desirous soul from the power of Satan unto God. This is the power of grace ...ye (are) saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:... Ephesians 2:8. It is a divine power. Under its influence there is a change from the old habits, customs, and practices which, when cherished, separate the soul from God; and the work of sanctification goes on in the soul, constantly progressing and enlarging.—The Review and Herald, October 12, 1897.

Throughout his later ministry, Paul never lost sight of the Source of his wisdom and strength. Hear him, years afterward, still declaring, “For to me to live is Christ.” Philippians 1:21. And again: “I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, ... that I may win Christ, and be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings.” Philippians 3:8-10. The Acts of the Apostles, p. 128.1

...thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:15

[Richard Myers]

I submit to you that the measure of faith God has dealt to every man is; indeed, saving faith.

Then would not all men be saved?  I think we have a difference of opinion on what saving faith is.  I am using it to express the idea that one's faith must reach a point of complete trust in God before it will save. The gift of eternal life is promised on condition of "saving faith" in Christ.  It is important that we understand clearly the nature of faith. There are many who believe that Christ is the Saviour of the world, that the gospel is true and reveals the plan of salvation, yet they do not possess "saving faith". They are intellectually convinced of the truth, but this is not enough; in order to be justified, the sinner must have that faith that appropriates the merits of Christ to his own soul. This is what it means to have "saving faith".  Does this better explain my use of the term, Glen?

[wigina]

believe in me as I do in God!  That is faith. By faith all is possible!? God does not do things by half measure. Everything that is required of us must be in full for us to receive anything of Him. Can we connect what the apostle was saying in Romans 12?  That of faith is tied to works. That when you have fwith then you will minister and will prophesy. Now that is the measure of our faith. There shoukd never be a measure of faith to signify our preparedness to salvation! No! It is either faithor no faith. Now when we hwve the full faith then we will be given according  to our abilities. We are csutioned that these our abilities are in no way superior or inferior one against the other but are complementary to each other.to have fsith is anactivity on our part. A conscious action something we must go out and get.

[Glen]

Again, I submit to you that the measure of faith God has dealt to every man is; indeed, saving faith. Christ IS that measure of faith. God the Father's faith in His own WORD, Jesus Christ, by Whom He created the worlds (Ephesians 3:9; Psalms 33:6; John 1:1-3), and the faith of Jesus in His own "faithful Creator" creative/redemptive word, is that saving Faith through Whom He recreates the fallen to become the sons of God (John 1:12).-Yes; the devils believe and tremble, but their "believing" is NOT the saving faith that we are to think about soberly. God is no respecter of persons; the ungodly may receive the same benefit of THE MEASURE OF THE FULNESS OF THE FAITH OF CHRIST.

Romans 5:
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Revelation 14:
12 ...here are they that keep...the faith of Jesus.

Deuteronomy 30:
10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments ...and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Any soul who will hear that WORD, Jesus Christ, speaking to the soul to rise from the dead, will receive His life.

Acts 10:
34 Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent...

Isaiah 55:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Ephesians 4:
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Hebrews 4:
12 ...the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession (of faith).
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

[Richard Myers]

Again, I submit to you that the measure of faith God has dealt to every man is; indeed, saving faith.

Glen, are you saying "saving faith" does not imply that the measure of saving faith given to every man is sufficient faith to save the sinner? That it must be developed further?

[Glen]

I submit to you that the measure of faith God has dealt to every man is; indeed, saving faith.

Then would not all men be saved?

The measure of faith God has dealt to every man is sufficient for each one; for justification, and for sanctification.

Romans 12:
3 God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Hebrews 11:
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth...
26 ...hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Though the promise found in Genesis 3:15 is each one of us, will all receive the promise? -No; some receive the word of God with that word of faith with which He spoke, while others do not. Cain is the first specimen of those who do not. Throughout Scripture is the theme often repeated, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Isaiah 55:
6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 3:
15 ...whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Romans 12:3

Romans 3:
22 ...the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 5:
5 ...the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Please note in verse 10 above, that "when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son." The gospel commission is for the Believer to assist the Unbeliever to comprehend the love of God for them, and to understand that the only way for them to be saved is for them to accept the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12), His own faith in His creative/redemptive word, that His life might be manifest in their mortal body (2 Corinthians 4:10); first the justification, then the sanctification, respectively, that each and every one may:

1 Thessalonians 5:
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

(counsel to an unstable young man)—You will be in constant peril until you understand the true force of the will. You may believe and promise all things, but your promises or your faith are of no value until you put your will on the side of faith and action. If you fight the fight of faith with all your willpower, you will conquer. Your feelings, your impressions, your emotions, are not to be trusted, for they are not reliable.—Testimonies for the Church 5:513 (1889).

...you need not despair.... It is for you to yield up your will to the will of Jesus Christ, and as you do this God will immediately take possession and work in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Your whole nature will then be brought under the control of the Spirit of Christ, and even your thoughts will be subject to Him. Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2, Page 694. 1

You cannot control your impulses, your emotions, as you may desire; but you can control the will, and you can make an entire change in your life. By yielding up your will to Christ, your life will be hid with Christ in God and allied to the power which is above all principalities and powers. You will have strength from God that will hold you fast to His strength; and a new light, even the light of living faith, will be possible to you. But your will must cooperate with God’s will.   Mind, Character, and Personality Volume 2, Page 694.2

...if we consent, He will so identify Himself with our thoughts and aims, so blend our hearts and minds into conformity to His will, that when obeying Him we shall be but carrying out our own impulses. The will, refined and sanctified, will find its highest delight in doing His service. When we know God as it is our privilege to know Him, our life will be a life of continual obedience. Through an appreciation of the character of Christ, through communion with God, sin will become hateful to us.  Lift Him Up, p. 178.5

Revelation 22:
5 ...the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The gospel net is to be cast into the sea, and it draws both good and bad. But because this is so, shall men and women ignore the efforts made to save those who will believe and who will unite in reaching that class of whom Christ spoke in His rebuke to the Pharisees? Sinners and harlots, He said, “go into the kingdom of God before you.” Will you not see that even in the church there are those who have no connection with God? But Christ says: Let the tares and the wheat grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into My barn.”  Testimonies for the Church Volume 8, p. 72.2

When the Lord moves upon the churches, bidding them do a certain work, and they refuse to do that work; and when some, their human efforts united with the divine, endeavor to reach to the very depths of human woe and misery, God’s blessing will rest richly upon them. Even though but few accept the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, their work will not be in vain; for one soul is precious, very precious, in the sight of God. Christ would have died for one soul in order that that one might live through the eternal ages.  Testimonies for the Church Volume 8, p. 72.3

Matthew 8:
13 ...Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Considered by Jesus, as He spoke to the Centurion, the measure of faith God dealt to the Centurion is the faith of the Centurion; thus, Jesus declared, as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee.

[Mimi]

It seems there is confusion as to whom is given "a measure of faith." Are we born with a measure of faith or is it given to man at the point of conviction through to conversion into what is called "saving faith"? If we are born with faith, then every single person on the planet would have it and from Glen's statements, that would be saving faith, or do we misunderstand what you are saying? That cannot be from my understanding of Scripture and from further elaboration from the Spirit of prophecy. Who is Paul referring to when he says to each is given a measure of faith? The unconverted or the converted? Is he speaking to the world or to the church? When read in context, it becomes obvious to me, it is the church. 

Now, as to faith, how is it different from "saving faith"? Here is a little explanation from one who knew we would need help:

It is important that we understand clearly the nature of faith. There are many who believe that Christ is the Saviour of the world, that the gospel is true and reveals the plan of salvation, yet they do not possess saving faith. They are intellectually convinced of the truth, but this is not enough; in order to be justified, the sinner must have that faith that appropriates the merits of Christ to his own soul. We read that the devils "believe, and tremble," but their belief does not bring them justification, neither will the belief of those who give a merely intellectual assent to the truths of the Bible bring them the benefits of salvation. This belief fails of reaching the vital point, for the truth does not engage the heart or transform the character.  {3SM 191.4} 
     In genuine, saving faith, there is trust in God, through the belief in the great atoning sacrifice made by the Son of God on Calvary. In Christ, the justified believer beholds his only hope and deliverer. Belief may exist without trust, but confidence born of trust cannot exist without faith. Every sinner brought to a knowledge of the saving power of Christ, will make manifest this trust in greater degree as he advances in experience.-- Signs of the Times, Nov. 3, 1890.  {3SM 192.1} 




The faith that justifies always produces first true repentance, and then good works, which are the fruit of that faith. There is no saving faith that does not produce good fruit. God gave Christ to our world to become the sinner's substitute. The moment true faith in the merits of the costly atoning sacrifice is exercised, claiming Christ as a personal Saviour, that moment the sinner is justified before God, because he is pardoned.--MS 46, 1891  {3SM 195.2} 


The apostle James saw that dangers would arise in presenting the subject of justification by faith, and he labored to show that genuine faith cannot exist without corresponding works. The experience of Abraham is presented. "Seest thou," he says, "how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" Thus genuine faith does a genuine work in the believer. Faith and obedience bring a solid, valuable experience.  {7BC 936.3} 
     There is a belief that is not a saving faith. The Word declares that the devils believe and tremble. The so-called faith that does not work by love and purify the soul will not justify any man. . . . Abraham believed God. How do we know that he believed? His works testified to the character of his faith, and his faith was accounted to him for righteousness.  {7BC 936.4} 
     We need the faith of Abraham in our day, to lighten the darkness that gathers around us, shutting out the sweet sunlight of God's love, and dwarfing spiritual growth. Our faith should be prolific of good works; for faith without works is dead. Every duty performed, every sacrifice made in the name of Jesus, brings an exceeding great reward. In the very act of duty, God speaks and gives His blessing (ST May 19, 1898).  {7BC 936.5} 


  In order to keep the world in its proper subordination it is necessary to have more than a mere casual, nominal faith in Christ. Many might give assent to the fact that Jesus was the Son of God and yet fail to have saving faith. Jesus must be all in all to the soul. You must believe in Him as your personal and complete Saviour.  {TMK 165.4}

[Mimi]

Again, I submit to you that the measure of faith God has dealt to every man is; indeed, saving faith. Christ IS that measure of faith. God the Father's faith in His own WORD, Jesus Christ, by Whom He created the worlds (Ephesians 3:9; Psalms 33:6; John 1:1-3), and the faith of Jesus in His own "faithful Creator" creative/redemptive word, is that saving Faith through Whom He recreates the fallen to become the sons of God (John 1:12).-Yes; the devils believe and tremble, but their "believing" is NOT the saving faith that we are to think about soberly. God is no respecter of persons; the ungodly may receive the same benefit of THE MEASURE OF THE FULNESS OF THE FAITH OF CHRIST.

Sorry, Glen and Richard, Wigina, Al, Wally and others. We may need to split this off and continue in a separate topic.

I just read Glen's statement a little closer.

"God is no respecter of persons; the ungodly may receive the same benefit of THE MEASURE OF THE FULNESS OF THE FAITH OF CHRIST."

If that statement is true, so is this one (some may recognize it):

"To every voyager on the storm-tossed sea of life, the Lord has given a compass which, if rightly used, will safely guide him into the eternal haven of rest...In every heart God has planted an emnity to sin, which, if heeded, will lead to righteousness and eternal life. Any man, whatever his station or rank in life, who will absolutely follow the divine compass placed in his heart, will accept Christ as his Savior and be led out into the sunlight of God's love and approval."

Now, I ask: Are these two statements speaking of something placed within us at birth or after we have come to inquire of Jesus? If this is given at birth, I do not believe either statement is true. There is nothing good in man at birth.

If I have any misunderstandings, as a student, I need to know it and be corrected.

[ranger]

An idea, if I am missing something or off base please let me know.

 Could it be that all humanity is given a measure of faith (even possibly at birth) and it is what the person does with their faith that is important? The faith that all are given is sufficient for salvation, but we may choose to exercise our faith in ways contrary to God's way. This preserves our freedom of choice, and yet God deals equally with all mankind giving all the same opportunity.

A person can choose to exercise faith in the wrong things. A person can choose to not exercise their faith (and loose it?), or a person can choose to exercise faith in God and have it grow ("Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith". Heb 12:2).

[Mimi]

Hi, Ranger. Thanks for your comments. They are interesting but I am not comfortable with them because of what we are told of the flesh and of the Spirit. Let's look at just a few texts that tell us what we are at birth. 

John 3:6, 7  That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. If fallen mankind had been born well, there would be no need of being born again. Make sense?

Fallen man is born sinful therefore he has a fallen nature. Paul says there is no good thing in man (Romans 7:18). David said he was even conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5). That which is born of the flesh could not possibly have anything good in them, such as a measure of faith or even, for that matter, a hatred of sin, otherwise known as enmity (Genesis 3:15) or even worse, a moral compass from which to operate. We are not born with these things, not if we believe Scripture.

Going back to the link I provided, consider this:

There is enmity between fallen human beings and Satan only as man places himself on God's side, and yields obedience to the law of Jehovah. RH, May 3, 1906

There is no enmity between a new born baby and Satan. The baby is born with a fallen nature that is in alignment with Satan. The baby is evil the day it is born just as it is a week or a year later. Only the Spirit of God can place that enmity between Satan and the seed of Eve. God promises to do just that if we will come to Christ just as we are.

That baby and all babies born to the children of Adam and Eve do not have a hatred of sin in them. They were not born well the first time. They were born with a fallen nature so they must be born again, of the Spirit, to receive a measure of faith from God.

What are your thoughts on this, Ranger? I'm a student, too, and this is my reasoning.   

[Richard Myers]

Ranger, I think you are headed in the right direction. Let's stop and consider some basic truths.

When Adam sinned, did he lose his ability to reason? Did he lose his intelligence? Did he lose his ability to know right from wrong?  The answer is no to all three. What did he lose? He lost his ability to do good for the right reason. He could know what was right, but he had no power to do it, in and of himself. He had no hatred of sin. He was aligned with it and Satan.

Then let us look at faith. Faith is the ability to believe in something one cannot see. There is blind faith and an intelligent faith. We are talking about an intelligent faith. This is what was given to all men. The ability to believe in something they cannot see. Let's look at an example that will help us. When Christ spoke to Satan and said that He would put enmity between Satan and the woman, Adam heard this. The question we now ask is this; could Adam by faith believe what God said?  He knew that he was supposed to die because he had sinned. He did not die. He heard God say that He had made a provision that Eve would have an opportunity to once again be aligned with God and have an enmity against sin and Satan. Was it possible for Adam to believe what God had said even though Adam could not understand at that moment how it could happen?

Now, if Adam could by faith believe it, then would this automatically put Adam in a converted or saved condition? I believe this is what we are speaking of when we say that the measure of faith, a limited amount is given to all men, just as each person is given intelligence and a conscience. This does not mean that the faith given is enough to save him, but it does say that it is the beginning. And, if that faith, even if it is as small as a mustard seed, is grasped and the Word of God studied, then what will happen to that small amount of faith? What does the Bible say will happen if we study the Bible with the desire to know God? Will our faith grow?

[wigina]

Thank you Mimi and Ranger for the caution! As we tread softly on the measure of faith, let us ponder a few observations
what was there in the beginning, was it trust or was it? Did Adam have trustvin God or faith? What was lost? If we had a measure of faith would it not simply either just grow or well just fade? Why then are we called? Some are called crom birth like Jeremiah, and John the baptist, others are called in there child hood like Samuel, others are calledin their youth like King David. Others are called in their prime like the disciples and others in their old age like nichodemus. When that call is heeded isn't that the mustard seed? Would the saviour ask the disciples to have faith like a mustard seed or wouldHe have told them to nurture the measure that they had? Let us be diligent in the matter and tread softly lest we be in error.

[Richard Myers]

Did Adam have trustvin God or faith? What was lost?

wigina, what do you see as the difference between trust in God and faith in God?

[wigina]

trust can be built from past experience. From a tangible thing it is not necessarily a blind action. But faith is when there is no experience it has never been done or seen yet we believe. That is why the patriarchs are ssid to have walked by faith not in trust.

[Glen]

Romans 12:
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

The counsel found in Romans 12:1-3, while originally written to the Believer, does not  exclude or ignore fallen mankind in general ...to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. This counsel is a wake-up call to the Unbeliever, which each new Believer in turn shares with those still in darkness.

I cannot think that these words of Scripture were written exclusively for the church, but for "every man"; men, women, and children. Certainly all sinners must be led to consider their "Maker"; to "think soberly" (Romans 12:3) of "the eternal power of the Godhead" (Romans 1:20).

The thought, "We have this hope" is, in a special sense, a term known in Christian circles; however ...He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Hebrews 7:25 is available to the ungodly for their redemption; -if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Acts 17:
24 God...
26 ...hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being...

Believer or Unbeliever; every man, is my brother. In Romans 12 Paul may have been writing exclusively "to the Church" of his day; however, in verse 2 he challenges all to be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. -If they were all already converted, he wouldn't have been moved by the Spirit of God to write this. Jesus IS the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2; Revelation 14:12).

I cannot fathom the problem some are having with the idea that Jesus Christ is "the measure of faith" given to fallen mankind. ...the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (1 Corinthians 12:7) And God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is available to each and every fallen man, woman, and child. Not all will accept that Faith as theirs, that Righteousness as theirs.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Romans 5:10

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21

"...when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son..." Will all "enemies" of God be saved? -NO; but it is the measure of faith that God the Father "first trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12), with, that gives any one of us, "a prayer" of hope in this life, and for the eternal life to come.

Yes; God has given to every man the measure of faith; saving faith.

Hebrews 12:
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

[Richard Myers]

trust can be built from past experience. From a tangible thing it is not necessarily a blind action. But faith is when there is no experience it has never been done or seen yet we believe. That is why the patriarchs are ssid to have walked by faith not in trust.

Thank you, wigina. So, it would seem that your are saying the Christian faith is a "blind faith"?

[Glen]

Candidly, I must say that; to my knowledge, I never began a thread titled "a measure of faith. It might rather be...the measure of faith. Romans 12:3, in my opinion. The concept "a measure of faith" is what caught my attention; and, the suggestion that "the measure of faith" that God says we are to "think soberly" about is (somehow NOT) "saving faith". I just cannot (yet) wrap my mind around the thought that God would have us "think soberly" about "faith that cannot save"(sic).

When we talk of the Seventh-day Sabbath, it is, by definition, not merely a Sabbath; significant difference, I think.

I hadn't previously read the article by Stephen Haskel until Mimi quoted him; then, I looked it up; was Brother Haskel outside God's favor at the time he wrote this passage(?):

"To every voyager on the storm-tossed sea of life, the Lord has given a compass which, if rightly used, will safely guide him into the eternal haven of rest...In every heart God has planted an emnity to sin, which, if heeded, will lead to righteousness and eternal life. Any man, whatever his station or rank in life, who will absolutely follow the divine compass placed in his heart, will accept Christ as his Savior and be led out into the sunlight of God's love and approval."

As you say, Mimi, "If I have any misunderstandings, as a student, I need to know it and be corrected."

[Mimi]

Hi, Glen. And that is why we are fleshing this out. We need to know what saving faith is and, if possible, what a measure of faith is and when we receive it. Inspiration (EGW) still speaks and has a bit to say on those who only have an intellectual assent to truth. An intellectual assent will not save them but they are in a position to weigh and choose or deny truth.

Richard said it well in this post:

Then let us look at faith. Faith is the ability to believe in something one cannot see. There is blind faith and an intelligent faith. We are talking about an intelligent faith. This is what was given to all men. The ability to believe in something they cannot see. Let's look at an example that will help us. When Christ spoke to Satan and said that He would put enmity between Satan and the woman, Adam heard this. The question we now ask is this; could Adam by faith believe what God said?  He knew that he was supposed to die because he had sinned. He did not die. He heard God say that He had made a provision that Eve would have an opportunity to once again be aligned with God and have an enmity against sin and Satan. Was it possible for Adam to believe what God had said even though Adam could not understand at that moment how it could happen?

Now, if Adam could by faith believe it, then would this automatically put Adam in a converted or saved condition? I believe this is what we are speaking of when we say that the measure of faith, a limited amount is given to all men, just as each person is given intelligence and a conscience. This does not mean that the faith given is enough to save him, but it does say that it is the beginning. And, if that faith, even if it is as small as a mustard seed, is grasped and the Word of God studied, then what will happen to that small amount of faith? What does the Bible say will happen if we study the Bible with the desire to know God? Will our faith grow?

And to answer his question: yes, it will grow to the point that it can move mountains. Matthew 17:20.