Author Topic: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church  (Read 23677 times)

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Richard Myers

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2012, 09:17:45 PM »
Amen! There is no consistency in a lie. To make the application that "the priesthood of all believers" allows women to rule over men would mean that there ought to have been women priests in Israel. Few of those who teach such things know their Bible very well and live by every Word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. The Old Testament states the same principle. "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." Exodus 19:5, 6. 

How many women sought to be priests then because God promised them they could be a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation? None. Why today? Because Bible truth is rejected and modern culture in some decadent societies demand it.

One more point to make regarding this principle set forth in both the Old and the New Testament. Not all will be part of this kingdom of priests and the holy nation. Almost to a man, those who teach the false doctrine of women's rights, of placing women as rulers over men, do not believe the promise is conditioned upon obedience. These teachers do not believe obedience is required for salvation, much less to be a part of the kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Holiness to most of them is an abominable teaching. Yet, both the Old and the New Testament teachings on the subject of the kingdom of priests reveal that this kingdom of priests is a kingdom composed of the obedient, of a holy people, not the disobedient.

Generally when Scripture is twisted to make it say something that it does not, the truth can be seen if the verse will be read in its proper context. Let's look at this favorite verse being used by those who want to place women as rulers over men in its context.

"Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:  Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,  As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:  If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.  Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. 1 Peter 1:22-2:9.


Yes, there is no consistency  in a lie, but there is perfect consistency in the truth as it is in Jesus. I pray that others will point out this relationship between the Old and New Testament. It will help the church come to a right conclusion on the study of the ordination of women pastors who want to rule over men.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mimi

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2012, 04:29:17 AM »
Yes, that is how I saw it. I like your outline.
Did you understand what I was showing there on the last part? 

I surely do. Thank you!
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colporteur

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2012, 06:59:03 AM »
It is to be  read vertically rather than horizontally.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

ejclark

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 07:46:54 PM »
It is to be  read vertically rather than horizontally.
Yes, with parallels side to side.

Bernard 3

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 11:55:50 PM »
What the "problem" of the Male headship is concerned, I believe that this is a logical consequence of a "culture" that has always existed among God's people, but in recent decades more and more externalized.

A culture where one in the first place would be recognized, accepted and do as the "others" do
A culture where as a result of this desire for recognition everything in perspective is (perspective means actually flatten and soften) such that the deeper meanings of certain operations and functions that God put in his word, are pushed in the background , no longer be recognized and eventually disappear.

The history of God's people is full of examples based thereon. Both in the OT (they wanted, like all the others, a human king) and in the NT


In the 1950s they wanted to be Protestants  with the Protestants and so became the sanctuary doctrine relativized (Questions on Doctrine)
The culture of tolerance and perspective (flatten and soften) became more and more into practice by the “others”
One could therefore not stay behind
And so was and is to this day the culture practiced by following the path of the least resistance and the most recognition. This is evident in the attitude toward divorce, pre-marital relation, homosexuality, drug use and ecumenism.

If these issues are paramount, it is normal that the Biblical principles, whereby certain acts and features involves  deeper lessons who pointing to the future, to Christ or to the relationship within the Godhead (in this case of the man as "the head") are no longer acknowledged and so totally ignored.

What is written in 1 Corr 11:3 is in the first place, a timeless biblical principle
 " But I would that ye know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man , and the head of Christ is God. "
And what Paul then in the next verse describes is a practical implementation or application of this principle adapted to the then circumstances.
But the immutability (the timelessness ) of the principle is thus not compromised.

It is this principle that at the rise of Feminism (1960-1970) by them as a "discriminatory gender roles" was dubbed and challenged. What in the course of time by the church leaders (including SDA) has been incorporated under pressure although by the members but also because of their own desire (culture) to  be  accepted and recognized by "the others",

Which by their hunger for recognition they totally lost sight that this acceptance of the idea of a "discriminatory gender roles" was an attack on the image that God gave to the creation of man (ness) and what the task was of Christ ' coming to earth.
Namely to make known to both, men and angels, the character of God the Father
And also  the fact that the Godhead has given to mankind this principle  of the man as "head" of the woman (in family, church), as an "image" of the relationship within the Godhead.
Whereby God the Father is the Sovereign (God) of everything and everyone (including Christ) and Christ the sovereign (God) is of the angels and humans.


I believe that what Paul wrote indeed has timeless value. Because disrupting the order of creation ( man versus woman) which has the example of the Godhead in it, messes and disturbs the image of and also the functionality within the Godhead.
Throughout the whole of the Bible there is no function that refers to the "head of" occupied by a woman; both spiritually as well as secular and family level.

That ” does not give to a woman a "master of"” would depend on the then zeitgeist or culture, is contradicted by the fact that the almost all the surrounding (pagan) peoples of Israel had both ; high priestesses (Babylon) and female monarchs .

On the other hand, among God’s people, important public functions such as "prophet" or "judges" were granted to women.
 
The reason why women do not could be "head", could not have had to do with an underestimate or disregard of the intellectual capacity of the individual (in this case the woman) but  it had to do with the function itself because this function is a reflection or " image "of something else.

Just as one and the same man was not allowed to combine the function of priest and king  because of the fact that both functions in itself referred to one person: Jesus Christ.
Similarly, the woman cannot exercise some functions that content "the head of"  because the function in itself refer to the relation in the Godhead.

This principle of "being the image " of the Godhead with the corresponding order of creation, where Man is the head and the woman and the child, "be submissive to him is  not only by Paul or Peter (1 Petr3: 1), defended but also noticeable throughout the whole Bible to the people of God.
But all this must always be done in a spirit of trust, love and respect for each other.

 I consider therefore the whole feminist movement in the churches to give to women any function as a lack of understanding of the Biblical meaning and the deeper significance of certain functions, also an externalization of what is just after the fall predicted namely.

"And the man shall thy desire, and he will rule over you." (Genesis 3:17)

Whereby this “desire” has nothing to do with sex, but with the pursuit of power to rule rather than serve.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2013, 07:25:28 AM »
Amen, Bernard. Good to see your post.  Just want to add one thing. While it is true that women are not to rule over men, it is also true that before sin things were different. The principle of the headship of man was dramatically changed when God said "And the man shall thy desire, and he will rule over you."Genesis 3:17. It was not thus before sin. Some would say that it is God's will that the curse pronounced  is to be removed prior to the second coming. I don't think so. From what I see, the world and the church are not yet ready for the curse to be removed. I doubt very seriously that the curse pronounced upon the males of this world will be removed before we are glorified, neither will the curse pronounced upon woman. What will happen is that godly women will not attempt to usurp the authority given to man, and man will cease attempting to "rule over" woman in the manner we have seen for the last 6,000 years. The order established by God before and after sin will be seen more clearly as the church responds to the call for revival and reformation and the character of God is manifested amongst His people. 

Notice that Paul gives us our direction which is a restatement of what God said to Adam and Eve in the Old Testament, but with the addition of a truth that has nothing to do with the curse. "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." 1 Tim. 2:12-15.

The culture of decadent society in the NAD and the TED and Australia cannot bear to consider this, therefore, the leadership, both in the NAD and the TED ignore this Bible truth and demand parity between men and women based on the culture which has changed their priorities in life. The world has come into the church and has infected the minds of many who believe they are rich and increased with goods, but know not that they are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.  Christ tells us the cure for the blindness which has come upon the church, in the very same verses He tells us to repent. "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Revelation 3:18-22.

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2013, 08:09:08 AM »
Who attends Sabbath School?  This next Thursday the Sabbath School lesson asks a question that opens the door to correct the false teaching of those who wish to make women rulers over men. Be prepared to share from Scripture the truth that will help others who are in the "valley of decision" or who may have already come to a wrong conclusion on the making of women conference presidents.

God would have us all learn to submit to His authority. It seems that some just are not able to submit to anything.  Lucifer had the same problem. His pride kept him from complete submission to God. Until we are able to surrender self completely to God, we shall not have peace in this world, nor enter the next. The failure of some at the division and union level to submit to the authority of the world church is an example of this inability.  If the world church were not on solid ground in harmony with Scripture, there might be grounds for study, but the world church is standing on the Bible and they are studying the matter more fully. To refuse to submit as have the Columbia Union and the Pacific Union is in direct opposition to Biblical principle being taught in this week's Sabbath School lesson.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Won Bae

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2013, 04:43:36 PM »
What is the definition of "ordained minister"?  I rally am asking this question because my definition of a ordained minister is not a "head" of any one.  He is a leader who leads his congregation to a right direction.  A very simple definition.  Am I wrong? This women's headship matter never came up until lately.  There have been many women in headship position over men in our denomination, for example; position of school principal in a teaching institutes where many male teachers employed, head of a department in the hospitals, etc.  I have never heard of any complaints over this issue.  So, why the ordained minister is so much different than these heads.  I am not pro wo, but I want to find out the reason why.  I have not really seen the hard evidence from the Bible that wo is against God's wish.  There were several women who were leaders in the old testament days as every one knows.  The reason of men should be the head of women is not sound enough to deny wo in my opinion. As I have mentioned a ordained minister is not a head of any one in my thinking.

Won

Mimi

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #28 on: March 01, 2013, 05:10:54 PM »
If that is the case in your thinking, what do we do with this, Won?

1Corinthians 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.


If God said "the head of the woman is the man," why would he have a different standard for the church?

And what are the Bible requirements for an elder? They are listed in the New Testament.

Now, I have a question for you, Won. Have you been listening to those liberals again?  ;D
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Won Bae

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 02:15:02 PM »
Mimi,

I  do not listen or read much what the liberals say on wo issue.  I read many articles written against wo.  I came to conclusion that only reason why women  should be not be ordained ministers is that women should not be the head over men.  I do not think being an ordained minister is a head over any thing. A minister as the term implies is the one ministers not the one who rules.  Our ministers should lead the congregation and counsel them as needed and he is not the one to rule the church.  I would like to see someone convince me otherwise.
There is another issue I posted before and no one answered me.  There are women who are HEADS over men, for example, a principal of our teaching institutes, a department head in our educational or denominational institutes.  This has been going on for decades yet, no one complained about it. In my way of thinking a school principal rules the school, a department head rules the department and many males work under the female heads.  Any opinion on this issue?
I pray every morning to God to give wisdom to our denominational leaders so as to lead our denomination in right direction especially the matter of wo.  I am hoping that God will reveal His wish soon to us.

Won

Mimi

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2013, 03:45:25 PM »
Okay. This subject is very simplistic. I know several on this forum who are very able to answer your questions, so I will step to the side and allow them to explain. 
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

colporteur

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2013, 05:23:51 PM »
I think this issue has been explained at length.

Even so, I might add that because there is not a rising up in one area does not mean no body cares or that  it is right.
There is not much complaining in the arena of allowing for divorce because of "abandonment" either. There should be because this is not biblical. I suppose there are so many battles to fight in the church that we must choose our battles and not fight them all. How many of the minority in the church who hold to the high road have time to minister,raise families, engage in all of the necessary day to day duties, and then fight all the battles ?

It is such with the topic of cross dressing. A few take hold of this but few understand the issue and few of those that do have the time to put energy in that area.

Though a female Principle does not exactly equate with being a pastor you are correct that it does or may take  a form of a headship role over male counterparts and I do not agree with that however, as I said, probably none of us have time to address every issue and satan has sought to tangle this issue up entirely. Therefore we must prioritize.

One difference  however with a woman Principle is  that to a large degree she is head over the children. This aspect is biblical because mothers and godly church mothers do have a headship role over the children.
While a principle has authority so does a pastor. The pastor not only ministers but he has some authority above the laity. Otherwise he is only a paid employee of the local church and we have congregational churches with no need for division presidents.

I cannot agree that an ordained pastor has no authority/ headship role.
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Richard Myers

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2013, 06:49:00 PM »
I came to conclusion that only reason why women  should be not be ordained ministers is that women should not be the head over men.  I do not think being an ordained minister is a head over any thing. A minister as the term implies is the one ministers not the one who rules.  Our ministers should lead the congregation and counsel them as needed and he is not the one to rule the church.  I would like to see someone convince me otherwise.

Keep asking questions, Won.  The truth can stand a close examination. God would have us all come to a right understanding based on His Word.  You are right about the pastor being a servant in the church. But, then so is the husband to be a servant in the home. Yet, they both have leadership roles. The pastor is to train up the church to perform its God ordained mission. Let me give you one example that in our present system allows for more than just the leadership in a local church.  In the Constitution and by-laws of the church when one is an ordained minister, they may then be elected to conference president. This means that an ordained minister is able to be the General Conference president. Any president of a local conference, union, division, or general conference is a spiritual leader in the church. The president of conferences, the pastors of churches, the elders, and deacons are charged with the spiritual leadership of the church. This does not mean that women do not have important leadership roles in the church and homes. But, the Bible excludes them from being leaders over men.  We have covered the Biblical basis of that doctrine. At times women have had to do that which men have not done. We understand that this is the case. It does not change the order ordained by God.

When men are led by women, it is a shame for the men. Listen to how God views it. "Woe unto the wicked! it shall be ill with him: for the reward of his hands shall be given him.  As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:11,12. God established the order just after sin while Eve was still in the Garden.    "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." Gen. 3:16.  Paul restated the doctrine clearly "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.  Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety." 1 Timothy 2:12-15.

Those who are in rebellion have no answer for this Bible doctrine. Many teach that it is a matter of culture, that Paul was speaking of the culture of his day. But, anyone with spiritual discernment can see that this is not what Paul was saying. He was only repeating what God had said to Eve in the Garden. Many in the rebellion are pushing their culture as the reason for putting women in positions of leadership over men. Like the world, they would have our wives and daughters doing all that men do. They have opened the door for the Obama Administration to put our wives and daughters on the front line in war. How blind we have become! The church ought to have stood firm and set a right example, but no, the NAD and some of its unions have brought reproach upon God, His Word, and His church.

You have not, dear brother. You are seeking the truth and praying that the church may know it and follow it. God bless you!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Won Bae

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2013, 06:41:48 AM »
Richard,

Thank you for your illumination on ordained ministerial function.  As you may know that I grew up in a culture women were treated like a 2nd class citizen.  In fact, they still do.  I have always wondered why men treat women differently than their own male colleagues.  Even in this country, men kneel down to women to seek marriage, I think this is the only time in men's life, "submit" to women.  I still feel it is unfair to treat the women as many men do, and God would not treat women differently just because one is female.  This is the reason why I kept asking what I have been asking to anyone who would listen to me.

There still is another question no one answered, the women being a head of department or a principal in a teaching institutes, no one raised any question regarding this matter.

Won

colporteur

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #34 on: March 06, 2013, 04:56:16 PM »

There still is another question no one answered, the women being a head of department or a principal in a teaching institutes, no one raised any question regarding this matter.

Won

To equate the head of a department with an ordained minister is fairly well comparing apples  with oranges. While apples and oranges both have peelings and juice they are not the same. EGW was a teacher/prophet but she was not an ordained minister.

There are areas where a woman may  reasonably lead over a man. For instance a female bus driver   generally has authority over all who are in the bus. Whether the passengers are male or female she has authority when it comes to certain guidelines and their interpretation. A female teacher may have boys or men in the classroom but as the teacher she necessarily has some authority over them.

Of course as with many things in life there can be areas that are a slipery slope and Satan loves to hang out in those areas. He does that with music. He does that with forms of healing treatments. He does that with the WO issue. This is why it is not wise to move into the slippery slope areas and  then slide down them the wrong way. 

I would personally rather err if error occurs, on the side of safety, rather than on the side of gambling when it comes to this topic. I believe even in teaching departments it would be best to have male headship. This is not only for biblical reasons but also for the very reason we are speaking right now. Won you are using females as head of teaching departments as a reason to ordain women as pastors.

If my post sounds contradictory I'll try to be more clear. Being principle in a school is not the same as being an ordained pastor when it comes to the headship role. However, there are some similarities and because of the those similarities I would not favor a female principle. The second reason, once again I would not favor this is because it gives members like yourself a little to bite on when favoring WO.  Because of the differences between an ordained pastor and a principle or teacher I would not equate the two as being the same and therefore would not consider the problem as severe when it comes to making a mistake.

There has been 6000 years of male headship among God's people. Jesus chose that method within the church. All the prophets including the female prophets followed that. The Bible clearly articulates such. We have seen the fruit of WO in non SDA churches on a consistant basis. Why would we want to go there considering all of this?

I think  that is the question that should be asked.
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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #35 on: March 06, 2013, 07:54:33 PM »
You are right, Won, Women have been terribly mistreated. And at times men have used the Bible to excuse their unkind and un-Christian behavior. The devil is clever in bringing reproach upon God's Word and His church.  When we read all of Scripture, we find that men are not to lord it over their wives. To the contrary, they are to love their wives and are to be as servants to them, just as Christ is a Servant unto us, even though He is the head of the church.

Ephesians
  5:21   Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. 
  5:22   Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 
  5:23   For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 
  5:24   Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 
  5:25   Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 
  5:26   That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 
  5:27   That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 
  5:28   So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 


I do not know how to answer your question about what goes on in the world in regards to roles for men and women. I know that there is a carry over, for women ought not be doing the killing in war. Israel went to war, and it was not to be with the women fighting.  I think that there is a role difference for men and women. Where that line is to be drawn in the world, I do not know.  And, yes, I know that we have an example of a woman in battle in the Old Testament, just as we see a woman judge. Both are exceptions because men did not do what they ought to have done.

When a woman owns a business, she ought to be able to hire men as well as women. That puts her in a position of leadership over men if men choose to work for her. That is their choice.

In the world, if I were a woman owner of a store, or manager in a business, I would not "rule" over a man. I would kindly ask for help.  In the end, the woman owner is responsible for the decisions, but she can do so in a womanly manner. This is contrary to the world, Won. There is no gentle loving interaction in the world as there ought to be in the church. I think this is the main concern that God has. Where is the love and respect. Because a woman is not to rule over a man does not mean that a man is to lord it over a woman. No, that has been all wrong. And in fact, a man is not to lord it over a man either. This has been the case all too often. It is not Christian character to do so. When Jesus is in the heart, then we not only reveal love for our friends, but we manifest Christian love for those who despitefully use us. This is the truth.

Let's take one more look at the world to address your concern about women who manage men in the workplace. I do not personally have a problem with it, but it is not exactly in line with the general flow of things. Women have one of the most important roles given to mankind, the rearing of children. If this were seen as such, we would not see so many women in the workplace. Now, Paul says that it is good for a woman to not marry. Then there would be no children to rear. What would the woman do instead? Paul states that by not marrying the woman could then devote her life to Christ. That would seem to place the woman full time in the church, not in the workplace of the world.

Well....let's place her in a position of ruling over men in the church workplace. Now, we see where the world has come into the church. There is a mighty work to be done by women in the church. But, she ought not usurp the authority of a man.  Not my words, but Paul's. And the reason is given in 1 Timothy.

Let me give one last thought in this area which may leave some questions unanswered. We do not see all perfectly, do we?  Authority may run a little deeper than we have thought.  We each are responsible for what we believe. That is a God given freedom and responsibility, liberty of conscience. But, if we do not follow the beliefs of the church we may not be granted membership. That does not step on my freedoms, even though some would say it does. They do not understand, for it is taken at face value we have a responsibility to make a minimum standard for baptism.

So, how about the authority women have to teach? Is there any authority given in this area? I believe so. I think that the elders in a church are responsible for the spiritual condition of the church. As such they ought to teach the adult Sabbath School lesson.  There are many cases where it is better for a women to do so, but it ought not be. Men have failed too often and at times a woman must stand up and do that which is needed. The positions of elder and deacon are to be occupied by men, not women. If the elders need a woman to help teach the adult Sabbath School class, then what authority does she have? She has the authority given to her by the elders and the church. Is she working independently of the elders? No, not at all. She is responsible to them for what she is teaching. Are they to lord it over her? No, but if she loves God with her whole heart, she will take her teaching serious and will feel her need of guidance from the elders. The authority she is granted is an extension of the authority of the elders to teach. 

We are altogether too independent of each other.  We are to submit one to another in love and respect. As a "teacher" I am under great obligation to listen to what others say when they disagree with what I teach. I am an erring human being. We do not want to be wrong in what we teach, we need the help of others to better understand God's truth. There is safely in a multitude of counselors, both men and women. A man who closes his ears to what a woman says is not walking in the light of Scripture. A woman who insists upon her right to teach men will find that her life is not filled with joy.

There are some women in managerial roles in the church that I have great respect for. These are very wise and manifest not only Christian character, but womanly character. They do not attempt to usurp the authority of the spiritual leadership of men. In their God given wisdom, they rely upon the wisdom given to men.

One last example.  In the home a woman may have education in a certain area that gives her knowledge the husband does not have. Does that make her the final decision maker? No.  She gives that information to her husband and he, if he is wise, will yield to her wisdom. The two are to work together, but according to the Bible we understand that he is ultimately responsible for what happens. If he trusts her wisdom, he is still responsible for the outcome.

Won, I don't know that I have answered your question very well, but have honestly tried.  I am surely open to hearing what you have to say. I want to follow Jesus and His word.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Ed Sutton

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #36 on: April 28, 2013, 04:34:48 AM »
I was finishing up reading the EGW biography vol 1, p-489,  and ran across this.  Sr White was writing to Mary Loughborough.  I found most of it in these two other places.

Quote
Mary, . . . I wish in all sisterly and motherly kindness to kindly warn you upon another point. I have often noticed before others a manner you have in speaking to John in rather a dictating manner, the tone of your voice sounding impatient. Mary, others notice this and have spoken of it to me. It hurts your influence.  {TSB 28.1} 
     We women must remember that God has placed us subject to the husband. He is the head, and our judgment and views and reasonings must agree with his, if possible. If not, the preference in God's Word is given to the husband where it is not a matter of conscience. We must yield to the head.--Letter 5, 1861.  {TSB 28.2} 

Quote
We women must remember that God has placed us subject to the husband. He is the head and our judgment and views and reasonings must agree with his if possible. If not, the preference in God's Word is given to the husband where it is not a matter of conscience. We must yield to the head.--Letter 5, 1861, p. 2. (To Mrs. J. N. Loughborough, June 6, 1861.)  Released July 20, 1972.  {5MR 173.2} 


Bible gives a chain of command if submission is required in a situation. 

Wife submits to husband, daughter & son & grandchildren submit to parents / grandparents, husband submits to Christ, Holy Ghost submits to Christ, Christ & Holy Ghost submits to Father God, ignorance submits to wisdom, and all humans submit to Scripture & SOP.
Grateful for Psalms 32 and Titus 2:10 - The divinity of Christ is acknowledged in the unity of the children of God.  {11MR 266.2}

Mimi

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #37 on: April 28, 2013, 05:07:47 AM »
That is my understanding, too, Ed, a holy chain of command. Thanks for sharing that quote.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

wigina

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2013, 10:00:47 AM »
Ezekiel 9:6 and they started with the old men that were before the house.
revelation 12:6 who are they that are before the house? Who are they that have to be sbaken first. The divisions in the US are the pioneers of the remnant, the old men that are before the house

Richard Myers

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Re: The Bible Teaches Male Headship in the Home and the Church
« Reply #39 on: April 30, 2013, 10:28:00 AM »
Welcome to our family, wigina!  Yes, the verse you have shared from Ezekiel states that in the end days, it will be the old "men" that will be judged first. These are the living, not the dead. Why men? Because they are the leaders in the church. Even if there are women who have usurped the authority, they are not as accountable as the men who rejected Jesus and His Word. So, therefore, judgment will begin with the old men, they have had more light than the young, and they being men will be held accountable for their failures to a much higher standard than those who were not given positions of leadership in the church.. All will receive according to the deeds done in the flesh, but judgment will begin with those most accountable. Women may seem to get a break here, but it is not so. When it comes to the home, and what happens to the children, the mothers who failed to set a right example and nurture their children will be held accountable. None have a greater or more important job than the mother. Jesus will ask "where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?" If they be in heaven, then praise God. If not, then why not? These are important matters that ought not be taken lightly.

It is not too late to come to Jesus. He stands at the door of the heart knocking. If we will come to Him just as we are, He will come in and sup with us. He loves us and gave Himself for us. He will help us to redeem the time we have wasted.

Again, welcome wigena! Thanks for sharing.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.