Author Topic: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists (Read 57825 times)

Richard Myers · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2015, 08:25:10 AM »

When we began the topic on rebellion in 2001, we did so because we understood that the making of women leaders of men was contrary to Scripture and the decision of the General Conference in Session, and was rebellion. It is interesting that so many in the church fail to call it so, even as we see the results clearly reveal rebellion against conference bylaws as well as the world church and the Bible. Some who may disagree with the Bible principles are beginning to see that to move contrary to the world church's decision is very wrong. But, they still do not call it rebellion.

In an email today I read the thoughts of Michael Peabody regarding the ordination of women pastors and the vote to take place at San Antonio. "For those who disagree with the outcome, it may be tempting for parts of the church to engage in a form of civil disobedience and disregard the decision of the worldwide church in session rather than to agree to follow the decision. But ignoring or disregarding the vote would institutionalize a wedge and create troubling precedent in terms of church cohesion. This would introduce congregationalism that would compromise the structural integrity of the church, and every subcategory, from union to conference to local church would have the presumptive authority to disregard decisions made at the higher levels. In a church based on a common set of fundamental beliefs, it could mean the end of local denominational identity in many parts of the world.

Dissenting entities within the church who disregard the vote will be institutionalizing a lack of respect for the authority structure that all portions of the church identified as Seventh-day Adventist have agreed to and this could destroy any ability of the denomination to cohesively address these future challenges."

Very well stated, Michael, but you neglect to say what we said 14 years ago, that this has already taken place. Dissenting entities within the church who have disregarded the General Conference vote have in fact revealed a lack of respect for the authority structure that all portions of the church identified as Seventh-day Adventist have agreed to. This lack of respect for church authority manifested in disobedience is rebellion. Now, if the rebellion against church law is not contrary to Scripture, then that is one thing and in some cases as when the church crucified Christ, we would stand with the refusal to follow church law, but when the rebellion is also against Bible law, then it is rebellion against God as well as the church.

This is indeed a distraction from the real issue which is a Laodicean church that has perverted more than the principle of church leadership. But, it is a distraction that needs to be met since the rebellion has spread in the last 15 years and is continuing to disrupt the church. The rebellion is not led by the laity, but is being fueled by a majority of the leaders in the North American Division who revealed their lack of respect for church authority by voting to allow women to be conference presidents despite the vote of the GC in Session and the refusal of the General Conference to approve a variance they requested. At that time we addressed the subject in our June 2012 Newsletter that has just been placed in our public archive. In it we reported on the October 31, 2011 NAD vote. According to the General Conference’s Office of General Counsel, the vote numbered 162 in favor of making women leaders of men and 61 against it.

Adventist News Network reported Prior to the discussion of this policy, Dan Jackson, president of the North American Division, led the congregation through the hymn “Have Thine Own Way Lord” and asked for the Holy Sprit’s leading in the discussion. Also, attendees separated in small groups (about three times) to pray about the proceedings. “My desire is that at the end of this discussion everyone present says in their own mind ‘I was in the presence of the Spirit of God,’” said Jackson. Such blindness that he would lead those assembled to think they were being led by God in their rebellion.

While we apparently disagree with Michael Peabody in regards to making women rulers over men, we certainly agree with him about the failure of those who have rejected and will reject the authority of the world church.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #21 on:** June 17, 2017, 03:41:53 PM »

We continue to report on the actions taken by the General Conference, and the actions of those in rebellion. We now choose to post in this thread an action taken by leadership in the church, most pointedly, leaders in unions in four rebellious divisions.

Today as we post, there is a meeting in London organized by union leadership in the four divisions of the world church. Not all union leadership in these divisions is involved. It is being reported that there are ten unions involved. Invitations to the meeting were sent to all of the unions in the world church.

What is the agenda for the meeting? It is to further the rebellion against the authority of the world church. From the "Unity 2017" website:

"Unity 2017 has been organised by Adventist leaders from four of the world divisions—an indication of the global significance of this discussion. It is a true sisterhood of union conferences, who have joined hearts and hands in seeking to provide leaders in our church a special opportunity for prayerful contemplation of this important topic. In the spirit of those Sabbath Conferences of the 1840s, and enthused by God’s Spirit, we will come together to explore the important subjects of church structure and authority, unity, and liberty of conscience."

Yes, indeed there are four divisions that are in rebellion. Western Europe, North America and Australia have been so influenced by the world that they know better than the world church. This organization will give the church a view of who it is that is leading out in the rebellion. Who are the leaders in this rebellious organization? Here we see who welcomed the registrants to the meeting, and who signed as the "Organising Committee."

Wim Altink, Ricardo Graham, Thomas Muller, Brad Kemp, and Dave Weigley

Organising Committee, Unity 2017

Keynote Speakers--

Roy Adams (PhD)
Teacher, pastor, theology professor (Systematics), administrator, author, Associate Editor, Review (Retired)

Reinder Bruinsma (PhD)
Pastor and church administrator (Retired)

John Brunt (PhD)
New Testament Theologian, Academic Administrator, Pastor (Retired)

Lowell Cooper (DMin)
General Vice President, General Conference (Retired)

Olive Hemmings (PhD)
Professor of Religion, Washington Adventist University

Wendy Jackson (PhD)
Lecturer in Ministry and Theology, Avondale College

George Knight (EdD)
Emeritus Professor of Church History, Andrews University

Barry Oliver (PhD)
President, South Pacific Division (Retired)

Gary Patterson (DMin)
Theologian, Senior Pastor, Church Administrator (Retired)

Rolf Pöhler (ThD)
Professor (Systematics), Theological Advisor of the North German Union Conference

Ray Roennfeldt (PhD)
Professor (Systematics), President, Avondale College

colporteur · « **Reply #22 on:** June 17, 2017, 03:55:34 PM »

Richard; can we assume that all the speakers are part of the rebellion ? And are we to assume this meeting is all about seeking to justify breaking from the world church ?

Richard Myers · « **Reply #23 on:** June 17, 2017, 04:18:33 PM »

cp, it may be that some are innocent. We do not know the hearts of all involved. It is hard to believe any at this point do not see their part in rejecting church authority. Maybe some who are not yet actively involved in making women leaders of men are attending the meeting. That is quite possible. It appears those participating in the leadership of the meeting are working with the rebels.

Are they all working towards splitting from the church? I don't know. This we do know, some of the unions have rejected the authority of the world church and their own bylaws. By so doing they are not operating within the sisterhood of churches which comprise the Seventh-day Adventist Church. It may be they think they have power over the church. They do not. Because God has not acted immediately to discipline them, does not mean they have won their rebellion. Korah was given a period of time in his rebellion before God put an end to it.

We know there is a "shaking" taking place in the church. We know many will be shaken out. It will be (is) a painful process, but it must be. Those who reject Scripture and the authority of the church, after being labored with will be removed from the church. There have been a number of churches that have left the organized church to begin a new church. After a period of time, all may recognized they erred. Their new church did not prove to be a blessing for all who were deceived. So it will be with this separation if some choose to form a new "organization." It is not of God.

This is God's church and it will see revival and reformation. Ezekiel 36 and 37 reveal our current condition and that God will pour out His Spirit and cleanse all who want to serve Him. His grace can bring about this revival. It will happen.

Since a great majority of the NAD leadership has voted to reject the world church's authority, we will face a separation one way or another.

During the Autumn Council in October 2011, the General Conference Executive Committee chose to stand on the Lord's side and uphold its constitution and the decisions made by the General Conference in session in 1995 and again in 2000 regarding the ordination of women to the ministry. The Autumn Council decision this fall confirmed that a conference president must be an ordained minister. There are some in disagreement with this decision who seek to make changes that are contrary to the vote of the Autumn Council, the world church and God's Word. - The Remnant Online Newsletter, December 2011.

Rebellion Against World Church 2010 Commissioned ministers can lead North American conferences, leaders vote
Vote reaffirms older policy; request sent to General Conference for exemption

GC said "No." A request to allow commissioned ministers in the North American and Trans-European divisions -- those who have not been formally ordained as Seventh-day Adventist pastors -- to serve as conference presidents sparked more than six hours of debate October 11, 2011, during the world church's Annual Council.

In the end, the controversial measure was defeated by a written ballot vote of 167 to 117. The 50-vote margin defeating the NAD proposal also effectively ended the TED request, which would have permitted commissioned ministers to head church unions as well as conferences.

http://news.adventist.org/en/archive/articles/2011/10/12/variance-for-north-american-trans-european-division-constitutions-fails-ann

2011 Year-end Meeting Report #3 NAD Votes on E 60 Policy: Conference/Mission President Eligibility http://remnant-online.com/smf/index.php?topic=90.msg137957#msg137957 [/color]

Richard Myers · « **Reply #24 on:** June 17, 2017, 04:46:52 PM »

What was the NAD's response to the GC's denial of their request for a variance from the church law? They voted to go ahead and do what the GC said they could not do. They voted to change their Constitution to allow for women to rule over men by being conference presidents. How close was the vote? Not even close at all. 162 voted in favor of rebellion, and 61 voted against rebellion.

From the September 2012 Remnant Online newsletter "The Shaking Has Begun".

Rebellion in the North American Division
-On October 31, 2011, under the leadership of Daniel Jackson, the NAD voted to allow women to be conference presidents in direct opposition to the General Conference Constitution and the GC denial of their request for a variance. According to the General Conference’s Office of General Counsel, the vote numbered 162 in favor of rebellion and 61 against. http://news.adventist.org/en/archive/articles/2011/11/01/north-american-adventists-reaffirm-commissioned-ministers-as-conference-mis
-On January 21, 2012, North American Division president, Dan Jackson wrote the NAD Executive Committee explaining that their action to make women conference presidents was illegal. The NAD president then wrote "The North American Division and its Unions and Conferences (as local circumstances permit) must become more intentional in the development of pathways to ministry for female pastors. We must also develop intentional methods of mentoring women who can take on executive leadership positions within our conferences." http://www.adventistchurchconnect.com/site/1/docs/E-60_Update_Letter_Dan_Jackson.pdf
-On Thursday, March 8, 2012, the Mid-America Union Executive Committee voted “to support the ordination of women in the Mid-America Union.” Thomas L. Lemon, president of the union stated "We are not aware of any candidates, but at some point, one of our six local conferences may vote to recommend a woman for ordination." "As we do with all such requests, the union committee will then prayerfully evaluate the candidate on her own merits while making its decision." http://outlookmag.org/ordination-of-women-as-pastors-in-the-mid-america-union/
-On March 22, 2012, the Executive Committee of the Southeastern California Conference voted “to remove the term ‘Ordained-Commissioned’ and replace it with the term ‘Ordained’ on all ministerial credentials, regardless of the gender of the credential holder.” http://secc.adventistfaith.org/news_entries/14788
-On March 27, the Potomac Conference, "according to Dan Jensen, assistant to the Potomac Conference president for communication, it was voted unanimously 'to request the Potomac Conference Standing Articles & Bylaws committee to begin a review process of its bylaws that would enable us to ordain women.'” http://spectrummagazine.org/blog/2012/03/27/potomac-conference-moves-ahead-intention-ordain-women
-On June 29, 2012, the General Conference issued an "Appeal for Unity" statement: "The actions of certain unions indicate their desire to establish an alternative source of authority for a matter that already carries the authority of the world Church.....For any union to introduce a different ministerial ordination practice is seen, by the rest of the Church, as readiness to set aside a world Church decision and proceed in another direction." http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5488/archives/issue-2012-1518/18-cn-an-appeal-for-unity
-On July 29, 2012 "The Columbia Union Conference Special Constituency Meeting today voted an historic motion—'That the Columbia Union Conference authorize ordination to the gospel ministry without regard to gender.' According to a statement released by the union it means that the union executive committee will no longer deny requests from conferences to ordain proven female ministers to the gospel ministry but that their calling will be fully recognized on par with their male counterparts."
http://www.columbiaunion.org/article/1093/news/2012-news-archives/july-29-2012-columbia-union-constituents-overwhelmingly-affirm-women-pastors-through-ordination#.UB_fIKPy3u0
-On August 19, 2012 "Delegates to a special session of the Pacific Union Conference voted 79% to 21% to 'approve ordinations to the gospel ministry without regard to gender.'” http://pauc.adventistfaith.org/news_entries/6778
-On August 19, 2012, the General Conference leadership published a response regarding the rebellion: "Further, the action is contrary to General Conference Working Policy and sets aside the 1990 and 1995 decisions of the General Conference in Session respecting the practice of ordination. The action taken by the Pacific Union Conference represents a serious threat to the unity of the worldwide Seventh-day Adventist Church, and thus, at its next meeting in October 2012, as indicated in another recent public statement by General Conference officers and division presidents, the General Conference Executive Committee will carefully review the situation and determine how to respond. In the spirit of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the officers of the General Conference appeal to all entities, organizations, and individuals, including the Pacific Union Conference, to refrain from independent and unilateral decisions and from implementing any such actions." http://www.adventistreview.org/article/5625/archives/issue-2012-1523/a-response-to-the-pacific-union-conference-constituency-vote
-On September 5, 2012, the Pacific Union Executive Committee approved the ordination of 14 women, ten from the South Eastern California Conference and four from the Northern California Conference.

colporteur · « **Reply #25 on:** July 28, 2017, 07:08:51 AM »

https://www.unityintruth.com/

I just emailed off a letter to President Ted Wilson.

colporteur · « **Reply #26 on:** July 28, 2017, 07:19:42 AM »

Sent a letter off to today for Ted Wilson.

Dear Elder Wilson;

I am a convert from Catholicism to the SDA church. This took place 28 years ago. I have been successfully canvassing in 11 different states since 1991. My family and I currently live in West Virginia where I am canvassing as well as on the boarder of Maryland, Ohio, and Pennsylvania. I have three children two of which are adopted from other countries. My wife works for the Federal government as a NRCS assistant to the state.

We have been following the women's ordination dilemma for the past two decades and realize that it is at a juncture of crisis. We are seeing Faithful ministers and ministries such as Amazing Facts and Secrets Unsealed being sidelined and forced to work independently from the NAD leadership. We lift up your hands and call for action to be taken in terms of holding the NAD and any other division accountable for rebellion against the biblical decision of the GC in session. We are very observational as we see WO, coupled with transgender and homosexual acceptance. "By their fruit ye shall know them". We respectfully demand that this issue be dealt with in a courageous yet respectful manner. While this issue is a symptom of a deeper problem, if the issues are not dealt with the cancer grows. It is apparent that no matter what position the GC takes on this division is a reality. We have been told through Inspiration that the straight testimony will be given and there will be a rising up against it. Since division is coming whether a stand against those who are going ahead with WO takes place or not, why not take a stand and be on the right side. Our prayers are with the GC leadership as we lift up your hands and call for you to lean into the battle. The victory is the Lord's.

Blessings;
Kevin, Damarys, and the Mortenson family

carls365 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 28, 2017, 12:21:09 PM »

CP, it's sad that you have to write such a letter in the first place to those who should realize and be doing without being reminded or told.

Plain Adventist · « **Reply #28 on:** July 30, 2017, 09:49:34 AM »

Colporteur, thank you for having the courage to write this letter. I will pray that it will reach the president and be of help to him.
I am amazed that you have moved to West Virginia! We live in WV, outside of Parkersburg. What church are you attending? I think that comparatively, you will find this conference more conservative than where you were, but that depends on what church you are going to, as there is quite a difference between local churches. There is still a great need of present truth and lifestyle reforms here in this conference. It would be wonderful if we could meet your family some time. We have three children and are homeschoolers too.

colporteur · « **Reply #29 on:** July 30, 2017, 07:30:58 PM »

Quote from: Plain Adventist on July 30, 2017, 09:49:34 AM

Colporteur, thank you for having the courage to write this letter. I will pray that it will reach the president and be of help to him.
I am amazed that you have moved to West Virginia! We live in WV, outside of Parkersburg. What church are you attending? I think that comparatively, you will find this conference more conservative than where you were, but that depends on what church you are going to, as there is quite a difference between local churches. There is still a great need of present truth and lifestyle reforms here in this conference. It would be wonderful if we could meet your family some time. We have three children and are homeschoolers too.

I was canvassing near Parkersburg, WV and in Marietta, OH last week. Stopped and purchased a whole van load of advertising and new health sets from Ron Davis as he is retiring after 46 years. Would have bought more as it was a bargain but could only afford so much. I'm hoping no one else takes it but LEs are few and far between so perhaps it will be there for me later. We are sending our son to Quatchita Hills in a couple of weeks so funds are a bit tight.
The best thing that the Morgantown and Kingwood churches could do is close down rather than to set that kind of example. Suffice to say they are a wasteland.. leadership working on Sabbath, affairs, etc.. I preached in Fairmont a few Sabbaths ago as well as Kingwood and Oakland, MD. We decided to become members at Oakland. We are in a location where we could easily be members in WV, MD, or PA.. I only see a little difference between this conference and others. Grafton church seems pretty good. Since Ron is retiring I am attempting to run his leads and cover an area from Charleston on up to Pittsburgh over east and then down to Elkins. Daughter and I attended part of campmeeting at Vista this year. Some of it was good and some not so great. Really liked Ron Goss' presentation. I missed some of it as I was working in Elkins. WV is a terror on one's vehicle. Blew a head gasket a couple of weeks ago. Not cheap. God is providing. WV is beautiful but a bit of a culture shock. Kind of like moving to a third world country. Nice people on one hand but crazies too. I experienced two demoniacs today over by Grafton. They were out playing horseshoe and pretty sauced up. Part of the time they were hugging me and praising me for my work and part of the time they were yelling in my face rebuking my legalism. lol. Pretty much anything that hinted of obedience set them off. They were not cussing or violent but extremely demonstrative and I don't think it would have taken much to make them aggressive. One of them, the lay preacher was in control of the other and kept him from getting too crazy. He accepted some literature and we had a prayer. Was not sure where that would go but it kind of calmed them down. Never a dull moment.
A lot of hard cross country miles today ( 166) but was able to place a six volume set of health books and leave books on prophecy on the doors of a couple of churches along the way. A lot of good , humble people here. Never saw, in this country so much poverty and lack of education though. We are east of Morgantown and south of Uniontown. Have had some amazing experiences already working the area but that is true of every area. It is very scenic driving the country toads. I crossed several streams today with my vehicle, bottomed out twice and had it was so bad on one dirt road I had to turn back and bang my way back out to the paved road.

Plain Adventist · « **Reply #30 on:** July 31, 2017, 04:39:48 AM »

That is wonderful you are now working in West Virginia, but I am sorry that you have had some challenging experiences. I am also sorry that the churches in your area are such a disappointment. It is true I have only been to a few of the churches recently. In November we moved to Parkersburg, but before that we were members of Glenville. It is more conservative than where we are now and you might enjoy it if you are able to visit some time. Where we are, we have challenges with the influences my children are exposed to. I am torn.
I do not want to write much on it here, as I know it is not the purpose of this thread. And from what I read on this forum, and read in the Visitor, I know it is so much worse in other places. Still, am I doing the right thing? is the question. If anyone wants to comment on this, maybe you should message me, so we do not derail this thread.

Ulicia · « **Reply #31 on:** May 22, 2018, 10:17:37 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on June 17, 2017, 03:41:53 PM

We continue to report on the actions taken by the General Conference, and the actions of those in rebellion. We now choose to post in this thread an action taken by leadership in the church, most pointedly, leaders in unions in four rebellious divisions.

Didn't see this latest news on the forum so not sure if you folk have seen it.

http://adventmessenger.org/adventist-leadership-in-north-america-wants-to-see-1000-new-women-pastors/

Is this an authentic report? If it is then this has become more than mere "acceptance" of women desiring to be pastors, but an active plan to largely increase women pastors.

Quoting from Fulcrum:

"Alex Bryant revealed he is head of very special project in the NAD. He clearly supports WO and stated he disagrees with our world church. He affirmed there were three no’s from the world church. "So we respect the world vote"under Dan Jackson’s leadership, we have created a “building block” of female ministry. Here it is: The NAD will 1) double the number of women pastors from 107 to 214 over 5 yrs. We at the NAD incentivize local conferences by paying 3 years of salary for women pastors! The “no vote” only says you can’t ordain as pastors. We can still hire and make women pastors as ordained elders." Yearly, the NAD is spending $450,000 / year to pay for women pastors. He stated that 44 a year are being salary subsidized at this point. Jackson and Bryant then indicated that when we get from 500 – 1000 women pastors in the NAD, then the rest of the world church will change their ideas. Both leaders reaffirmed that they don’t agree with the world church at all. Jackson said in conclusion – “This topic ain’t going away."

http://www.fulcrum7.com/blog/2017/3/27/is-this-thing-on-review

That article's title does voice my question -- "Is This Thing On?" For real? Are they really pushing to increase women pastors with monetary rewards to this extent?

Richard Myers · « **Reply #32 on:** May 23, 2018, 08:31:22 AM »

Why not? This has been their intent all along. They are in rebellion against the church and Scripture. They are indeed making women leaders over men. They reject the decisions made by the world church. This is outright rebellion. But, it is only a symptom of a much deeper problem. God allows this that a sleeping church might awaken to the real problem, its Laodicean condition in which most are not in a converted state (lost).

We are in a worse condition today than the church in 1888 when it rejected the gospel truth and blocked the coming of Christ.

colporteur · « **Reply #33 on:** May 23, 2018, 11:12:23 AM »

The NAD is following the churches of Babylon.

colporteur · « **Reply #34 on:** October 16, 2018, 06:44:01 AM »

Iowa/Miss president Dean Cordain has finally come out of the closet and has directly attacked the GC and Ted Wilson. He has concealed his true nature for years using his ministerial director to do his work for him as discreetly as possible.

Richard Myers · « **Reply #35 on:** November 01, 2018, 07:50:09 AM »

PACIFIC UNION CONFERENCE
The Seventh-day Adventist Church in the Pacifc Southwest2686 Townsgate Road | Westlake Village, CA 91361 | 805.497.9457

Pacific Union Conference Statement following the 2018 Annual Council

The mission of the church is universal, while the ministry of the church is local. We are resolved in our continued commitment to ordain women and men equally. We remain stalwart in support of our churches, schools, conferences, and all of our workers. The Pacifc Union Conference affrms and renews our devotion to the unique ministry that Christ has given us.

Pacific Union Conference Officers
October 17, 2018

Richard Myers · « **Reply #36 on:** January 15, 2019, 07:42:52 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on September 03, 2001, 12:50:00 PM

Ellen White was a woman mightily used of God and I pray that my daughters would one day be so privileged.

Why is it that those who act contrary to the General Conference decision and want to raise a women to authority over men have such little regard for the woman who God used in such a mighty manner? There has never been consistency in error and never will be. When our people cherish the light that God has been pleased to send to His church, then we shall see a revival of primitive godliness that will culminate in the second coming of Christ.

The Bible is the rule of my life. It gives me great joy to say that my mind has been formed by the Bible and the writings of Ellen White more than any other influence in this world. I would that I could find a man to learn from in such a profound manner. The idea that men ordained into the ministry would want to be led by a woman is a revelation of the sad condition we find our ministry in.

One last comment that must be seen as a truth that cannot easily be overlooked. The Pacific Union Conference has certain specific responsibilities. What are they? There are church institutions that have been established by the union and look to the Union for leadership. What institutions are these that the union has responsibilities towards? Two come to mind very quickly. Schools of "higher" education and hospitals (sanitariums). When one examines these institutions in the Pacific Union and compares the counsels given through a woman prophet for the running of these institutions, one will find that no matter what one says about respecting the position of a woman, little regard has been shown to the inspired writings of this woman, Ellen White.

It is not what one says, but what one does that indicates character. Profession means nothing to God, only the obedience rendered from a willing heart. Professing to want to be led by a woman means nothing. God chose a woman to speak through and much of what was said is rejected. Let the desire to see women exalted be given to exalting God and His inspired counsel.

Once again a line has been drawn in the sand. And in this case the General Conference in session stands on the right side. Who else will stand on the Lord's side?

Marelis · « **Reply #37 on:** January 16, 2019, 02:16:15 AM »

Quote from: Richard Myers on January 15, 2019, 07:42:52 AM

Quote from: Richard Myers on September 03, 2001, 12:50:00 PM

Why is it that those who act contrary to the General Conference decision and want to raise a women to authority over men have such little regard for the woman who God used in such a mighty manner?

Excellent question and observation, Br Myers! Exactly.

I do appreciate your reasoning on this topic. I hope you won't mind if I add some thoughts of my own as a woman in her middle years who has been an SDA for all of her life. The comment I have frequently heard women make - and I think their point needs to be heard and acknowledged - is that it is not uncommon for a church to have inept, incompetent male candidates for the position of elder. And they ask, why should a person be given an office of church authority because they are of a particular gender when a competent, spiritually minded woman could do an excellent job as elder? And they do have a point. I have attended a church where there have been male elders who have never preached a sermon, given a Bible study, would be too shy to pray with someone. But the female elder preaches, keeps the church running smoothly, takes care of church business, visits the sick and prays with them, can give a Bible study. My personal thought about such situations is that the described situation is also a symptom of males not being trained up to serve the church in such a capacity. Having said this, it saddens my heart when there is a lack of godly male leadership in the church.

Glen McCluskey · « **Reply #38 on:** January 20, 2019, 03:13:43 PM »

Quote

Excellent question and observation, Br Myers! Exactly.

I do appreciate your reasoning on this topic. I hope you won't mind if I add some thoughts of my own as a woman in her middle years who has been an SDA for all of her life. The comment I have frequently heard women make - and I think their point needs to be heard and acknowledged - is that it is not uncommon for a church to have inept, incompetent male candidates for the position of elder. And they ask, why should a person be given an office of church authority because they are of a particular gender when a competent, spiritually minded woman could do an excellent job as elder? And they do have a point. I have attended a church where there have been male elders who have never preached a sermon, given a Bible study, would be too shy to pray with someone. But the female elder preaches, keeps the church running smoothly, takes care of church business, visits the sick and prays with them, can give a Bible study. My personal thought about such situations is that the described situation is also a symptom of males not being trained up to serve the church in such a capacity. Having said this, it saddens my heart when there is a lack of godly male leadership in the church.

Hi Marelis, I'm not an advocate of WO, but would like to expand on what you're saying in a couple of directions.

In the first place, my impression is that both sides in the WO debate are driven primarily by policy or philosophy, rather than by truly seeking God's will. As you say, excluding women while allowing unqualified men to serve doesn't make any sense, and can hardly be God's plan for the church.

I'd be in favor of an approach where we spend most of our effort humbling ourselves before the Lord and asking Him who He wishes to lead us. Some of the people the Lord selects might be surprising to both liberals and conservatives.

This in turn leads to another observation, which is that the qualifications of God's end-time leaders are not necessarily the same as in a conventional church setting. The Bible mentions sons and daughters prophesying (Joel 2:28), kings and priests who serve God day and night in His temple (Revelation 1:6, 5:10, 7:13-15), and a group of people who follow Christ wherever He goes (Revelation 14:1-5).

I'm not aware of any male / female angles on these types of leaders, and if a woman asked me how she could make the maximum use of her spiritual talents, my advice would be the same as what Ellen White said -- strive to be one of the 144,000 (RH 3/9/1905).

My favorite example of this sort of thing is the SOP quote below, that talks about the role of the 144,000 in the "closing work for the church". It appears that these people will serve as divine agents in the fulfillment of Ezekiel 9, and I would assume that such individuals will be an equal mix of men and women.

When the Lord takes the reins of the church (TM 299), the people He uses may be different from the people we would select in a conventional church context.

Quote

The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people. This is forcibly set forth by the prophet's illustration of the last work under the figure of the men each having a slaughter weapon in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side. "And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof."
{3T 266.2}

Who are standing in the counsel of God at this time? Is it those who virtually excuse wrongs among the professed people of God and who murmur in their hearts, if not openly, against those who would reprove sin? Is it those who take their stand against them and sympathize with those who commit wrong? No, indeed! Unless they repent, and leave the work of Satan in oppressing those who have the burden of the work and in holding up the hands of sinners in Zion, they will never receive the mark of God's sealing approval. They will fall in the general destruction of the wicked, represented by the work of the five men bearing slaughter weapons. Mark this point with care: Those who receive the pure mark of truth, wrought in them by the power of the Holy Ghost, represented by a mark by the man in linen, are those "that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done" in the church. Their love for purity and the honor and glory of God is such, and they have so clear a view of the exceeding sinfulness of sin, that they are represented as being in agony, even sighing and crying. Read the ninth chapter of Ezekiel. {3T 267.1}

Richard Myers · « **Reply #39 on:** January 21, 2019, 09:11:02 AM »

Sister Marelis, you are so very correct. Many of our churches have elders that ought not be elders. When a church has no men capable of leading he church, then capable (converted) women need to do so. I do not mean to make them kings, but to do that which men cannot do. Do we not see this in the Bible, and even in our day when God chose a woman to speak through rather than the two men who would not? And, look at what she had to work with in the church. Yes, there were some capable me, but not many. And, three that God did work through, did not continue on and will not be in heaven.

You are right also in expressing the idea that men are not being trained properly. Many have gone through our schools and have not been educated according to Scripture and the counsel given through the woman prophet. Many of our men and women have been buried alive and remain in a Laodicean condition.

Thank you Brother Glen for sharing. You are so right that there is a work to do that does not require ordination. When revival and reformation comes, and it has begun, then new leaders will be chosen. But, not all will serve as presidents of conferences. And, it may be that all of these presidents might not be included in the 144,000. One need not be ordained by the church to fulfill the work one is called to. God's ordination is higher than that of man. And, all ordained of God will not be seeking that which He has not given.

Today, the Holy Spirit is circling the world seeking entrance into the hearts of men, women, and children. We ought to be more concerned about the condition of our hearts than our standing before man. Soon there will be no more opportunity to repent of our sins. Jesus has almost completed His work in the heavenly sanctuary. When He does, there will be no more forgiveness of sin. There will no Mediator to stand between God and the sinner. This ought to cause all to better understand their standing before God today.