Author Topic: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists  (Read 11315 times)

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Richard Myers

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Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« on: August 22, 2012, 12:21:12 AM »
Some have not rightly understood the seriousness of the current situation in the church. Some have told me that our calling this crisis a "rebellion" is over the top. At least a few months ago that was said. I share a quote from eleven years ago that will show that the term rebellion was applied way back then. When rebellion is not dealt with, it will continue to not only fester, but will spread and infect others. We now see that by not addressing the rebellion so many years ago, it has indeed spread widely within the church. The then president of the General Conference publicly stated that the ones in rebellion had Biblical principle on their side. This poured fuel on the fire of rebellion.

It is with great sadness that we report a decision made by the Pacific Union Conference in session last week. The Union voted a change in the bylaws which will now allow for a person holding commissioned ministerial credentials to be considered for the office of union president. In the past only an ordained minister could hold this position. With this change the ordained ministers can be under authority of one not ordained. Why the vote? To allow a women to lead the union, to allow a women to lead men.

The rebellion against the world church that began in the South Eastern California Conference has now spread to the Pacific Union Conference. The silence in response to the SEEC action has led to this union action and we can anticipate that if there is a similar lack of response from those in responsible positions in the church the rebellion will continue to spread.

Let us weep between the porch and the altar.

"When unfaithful teachers came among the people, weakness followed, and the faith of God's people seemed to wane; but God arose and purged his floor, and the tried and true were lifted up.

There are times when apostasy comes into the ranks, when piety is left out of the heart by those who should have kept step with their divine Leader. The people of God separate from the source of their strength, and pride, vanity, extravagance, and display follow. There are idols within and idols without; but God sends the Comforter as a reprover of sin, that his people may be warned of their apostasy and rebuked for their backsliding. When the more precious manifestations of his love shall be gratefully acknowledged and appreciated, the Lord will pour in the balm of comfort and the oil of joy.

When men are led to realize that their human calculations come far short, and are convinced that their wisdom is but foolishness, then it is that they turn to the Lord to seek him with all the heart, that they may find him." CE 95
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2012, 12:31:20 AM »
Ellen White has been used by those leading out in the rebellion as an example of a woman leading men.  There are indeed examples in the Bible of women in the church leading men. The Bible does not teach that this is the way it ought to be. But, when men fail to lead, then God has indeed raises up a woman to lead men. It is a shameful thing. It is out of God's order.


Ellen White was a woman mightily used of God and I pray that my daughters would one day be so privileged.

Why is it that those who act contrary to the General Conference decision and want to raise a women to authority over men have such little regard for the woman who God used in such a mighty manner? There has never been consistency in error and never will be. When our people cherish the light that God has been pleased to send to His church, then we shall see a revival of primitive godliness that will culminate in the second coming of Christ.

The Bible is the rule of my life. It gives me great joy to say that my mind has been formed by the Bible and the writings of Ellen White more than any other influence in this world. I would that I could find a man to learn from in such a profound manner. The idea that men ordained into the ministry would want to be led by a woman is a revelation of the sad condition we find our ministry in.

One last comment that must be seen as a truth that cannot easily be overlooked. The Pacific Union Conference has certain specific responsibilities. What are they? There are church institutions that have been established by the union and look to the Union for leadership. What institutions are these that the union has responsibilities towards? Two come to mind very quickly. Schools of "higher" education and hospitals (sanitariums). When one examines these institutions in the Pacific Union and compares the counsels given through a woman prophet for the running of these institutions, one will find that no matter what one says about respecting the position of a woman, little regard has been shown to the inspired writings of this woman, Ellen White.

It is not what one says, but what one does that indicates character. Profession means nothing to God, only the obedience rendered from a willing heart. Professing to want to be led by a woman means nothing. God chose a woman to speak through and much of what was said is rejected. Let the desire to see women exalted be given to exalting God and His inspired  counsel.

Once again a line has been drawn in the sand. And in this case the General Conference in session stands on the right side. Who else will stand on the Lord's side?
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Dorine

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2012, 07:26:13 AM »
Amen Richard. We are watching this with intense interest. I am amazed at the comments I'm hearing from those around me that I thought were grounded. They just don't see the big deal.
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Wally

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 05:18:39 PM »
Ellen White has been used by those leading out in the rebellion as an example of a woman leading men.  There are indeed examples in the Bible of women in the church leading men. The Bible does not teach that this is the way it ought to be. But, when men fail to lead, then God has indeed raised up a woman to lead men. It is a shameful thing. It is out of God's order.


One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this discussion, and the misuse of the SOP by the proponents of WO, is that God calls a prophet directly.  The prophet, be they male or female, is speaking for God, delivering the Lord's messages.  It is a "thus saith the Lord."  Elders and pastors, by contrast, are chosen by the church and ordained by the church.    They are invested with a certain amount of authority in the direction of church affairs.  A prophet can speak for God, but how much authority does he or she really have?  The can't force anyone to accept the message.  Look at Jeremiah.  Do we find Mrs. White ordering people around?  She often said, "I was shown;" but it was up to the recipients of the message to accept it or reject it. 

Maybe it's a small difference, but when it comes to the issue of authority, its seems significant to me.
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Larry Lyons

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 05:29:08 PM »
Ellen White has been used by those leading out in the rebellion as an example of a woman leading men.  There are indeed examples in the Bible of women in the church leading men. The Bible does not teach that this is the way it ought to be. But, when men fail to lead, then God has indeed raises up a woman to lead men. It is a shameful thing. It is out of God's order.


One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this discussion, and the misuse of the SOP by the proponents of WO, is that God calls a prophet directly.  The prophet, be they male or female, is speaking for God, delivering the Lord's messages.  It is a "thus saith the Lord."  Elders and pastors, by contrast, are chosen by the church and ordained by the church.    They are invested with a certain amount of authority in the direction of church affairs.  A prophet can speak for God, but how much authority does he or she really have?  The can't force anyone to accept the message.  Look at Jeremiah.  Do we find Mrs. White ordering people around?  She often said, "I was shown;" but it was up to the recipients of the message to accept it or reject it. 

Maybe it's a small difference, but when it comes to the issue of authority, its seems significant to me.
Good points Wally. It is also interesting that Ellen White was God's third choice after two young men refused to carry God's messages to others. I believe the second one was Hazen Foss. I don't recall the other. Not that its relevant, but If I remember correctly, Hazen Foss was African American.

Plain Adventist

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2012, 07:00:06 AM »
One thing that seems to have been forgotten in this discussion, and the misuse of the SOP by the proponents of WO, is that God calls a prophet directly.  The prophet, be they male or female, is speaking for God, delivering the Lord's messages.  It is a "thus saith the Lord."  Elders and pastors, by contrast, are chosen by the church and ordained by the church.   

This is an interesting point. Using Ellen White's example as an excuse for women being pastors tends to place the gift of  prophecy on the same level as pastoral ministry. Pastors are chosen and ordained by man. Man often makes mistakes and chooses pastors who lead the people into error. But God chooses prophets, and He never makes a mistake. Their messages are based on inspiration, not on their own thoughts.

Thus the ministry, and messages, of Ellen White are different than those of a pastor, whose understanding, and thus his presentation of truth, may at times be faulty. We can fully trust inspiration, but we need to test what pastors say by inspiration. If Ellen White was basically just another woman pastor, then we do not need to take what she says too seriously.

I am afraid there is a subtle movement to demote the divine character of prophetic inspiration. When we habitually refer to Ellen White as "church co-founder" rather than a messenger of the Lord, this is another example.
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Sister Dee

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2012, 08:00:02 AM »
It is also interesting that Ellen White was God's third choice after two young men refused to carry God's messages to others. I believe the second one was Hazen Foss. I don't recall the other. Not that its relevant, but If I remember correctly, Hazen Foss was African American.

Actually, the African American was William Foy.  I know that his visions were published, though I'm not certain that God called him to be a messenger in the same capacity as He did Hazen Foss and Ellen White. 

Plain Adventist, I had not thought of this as undermining the SOP, but I can see that it is so.  The implications run deep.   :( 

colporteur

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2012, 08:59:55 AM »
I think the issue relative to prophets and pastors is the "headship role." As much as some would like to make the prophetic gift a headship role it is not. It is a role of guide, counselor, and advisor, at the request/command of God. This does not diminish the roll of a prophet it is just an entirely different role.

Again, not in any way diminishing the high calling of a prophet of God, however they play the role of a messenger boy... or girl. The prophet does not have the authority of a pastor in terms of the politcs in the church. He/she simply relates the message from the One in heaven who has all authority. In one respect, it could be said that a prophet is a translator. A pastor/elder has more of a hands on/ legislative role in the church.

Both pastor/elder and prophet have alot of authority in the church. It's just that the authority of a prophet is more advisory while the pastor is involved in the nuts an bolts of the church organizing process. Personally, I believe the prophet or at least the prophet's message carries more authority. However, the pastor has more authority to implement. Maybe I'm not exactly on with this but it is the way I see it.
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Dorine

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2012, 10:27:58 AM »
In 1987 the Review and Herald Published a book entitled "The Unknown Prophet" by Delbert W. Baker who did research into the background of William Foy. It is very interesting if you can find a copy.
But this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press  toward the mark. Phil. 3:13,14

Mimi

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2012, 11:50:18 AM »
In matters of rebellion and apostasy, these little quotes speak volumes:

This apostasy has been permitted, that it may be faithfully written out in the true light ... The Lord has permitted this matter to develop as it has done, in order to show how easily His people will be misled when they depend upon the words of men instead of searching the Scriptures for themselves, as did the noble Bereans, to see if these things are so.  {9MR 361.3} 

     The Lord has permitted this thing to be, that warning may be given that just such things will take place. Rebellion and apostasy are in the very air we breathe. We shall be affected by it unless we by faith hang our helpless souls upon Christ. If men are so easily misled, how will they stand when Satan shall personate Christ, and work miracles? Who will be unmoved by his misrepresentations--professing to be Christ, when it is only Satan assuming the person of Christ, and apparently working the works of Christ? What will hold God's people from giving their allegiance to false christs? "Go not ye after them" (See Luke 21: 8 ).  {9MR 362.1}
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2012, 11:54:18 AM »
Amen!

The various topics in this forum will reveal the history and extent of the rebellion. As it is now, we have the North American Division that voted into existence a policy that would allow women to be conference presidents. That policy was rescinded when the lawyers for the NAD realized it was an illegal action. The NAD president vowed to continue the fight to place women in high places in the church as he apologized for the illegal action.

The Trans-European Division has voted to have parity between women and men in church leadership positions. The division president explained that their society in Europe demands it.

The new plan was to use the unions to change the laws in the church.  The Mid America Union voted to ordain women. The Columbia Union has voted to ordain women. The Pacific Union has voted to ordain women. The Northern German Union has voted to ordain women. The Southern Union has voted to support the World Church.

At each step of the way, the General Conference has said "no" to women's ordination.  The authority of the World Church has been usurped and now, it appears that law and order within the Seventh-day Adventist Church has taken a back seat to anarchy in two divisions of the World Church. The failure to follow established order and the failure to adhere to Scripture, sets these unions in direct opposition to God and His church.

We know the end of the matter. We praise God and move forward asking for His leadership through His appointed agencies. The shaking has begun and as painful as it will be, it is needful. God will have a people who love Him and keep His commandments.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

ejclark

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2012, 06:19:03 PM »
This is an interesting point. Using Ellen White's example as an excuse for women being pastors tends to place the gift of  prophecy on the same level as pastoral ministry. Pastors are chosen and ordained by man. Man often makes mistakes and chooses pastors who lead the people into error. But God chooses prophets, and He never makes a mistake. Their messages are based on inspiration, not on their own thoughts.

Thus the ministry, and messages, of Ellen White are different than those of a pastor, whose understanding, and thus his presentation of truth, may at times be faulty. We can fully trust inspiration, but we need to test what pastors say by inspiration. If Ellen White was basically just another woman pastor, then we do not need to take what she says too seriously.

I am afraid there is a subtle movement to demote the divine character of prophetic inspiration. When we habitually refer to Ellen White as "church co-founder" rather than a messenger of the Lord, this is another example.
So very true.  A book written by Graeme Bradford (More Than a Prophet) does a lot of damage to the gift of prophecy as understood in the historical context.  It is a fulfillment of Mrs. White's quote about "making none effect the testimonies of the Spirit of God".

This book is very popular with the Adventist's looking for loopholes in Christianity but still wanting to be viewed as Christian.

Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2013, 07:47:55 AM »
The decision to not ordain women pastors was made by the General Conference in session in 1990 and 1995. It is in harmony with Scripture. Here in the Spirit of Prophecy we have an explanation of what has been happening:

     Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; . . . and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. And unto Adam he said, . . . cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life. Genesis 3:16, 17.
     Eve was told of the sorrow and pain that must henceforth be her portion. . . . In the creation God had made her the equal of Adam. Had they remained obedient to God--in harmony with His great law of love--they would ever have been in harmony with each other; but sin had brought discord, and now their union could be maintained and harmony preserved only by submission on the part of the one or the other. Eve had been the first in transgression; and she had fallen into temptation by separating from her companion, contrary to the divine direction. It was by her solicitation that Adam sinned, and she was now placed in subjection to her husband. . . .
     Eve had been perfectly happy by her husband's side in her Eden home; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered with the hope of entering a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. In attempting to rise above her original position, she fell far below it. A similar result will be reached by all who are unwilling to take up cheerfully their life duties in accordance with God's plan. In their efforts to reach positions for which He has not fitted them, many are leaving vacant the place where they might be a blessing. . . . 
     When God made man, He made him ruler over the earth and all living creatures. So long as Adam remained loyal to Heaven, all nature was in subjection to him. But when he rebelled against the divine law, the inferior creatures were in rebellion against his rule. Thus the Lord, in His great mercy, would show men the sacredness of His law, and lead them, by their own experience, to see the danger of setting it aside, even in the slightest degree. 
     And the life of toil and care which was henceforth to be man's lot was appointed in love. It was a discipline rendered needful by his sin, to place a check upon the indulgence of appetite and passion, to develop habits of self-control. It was a part of God's great plan for man's recovery from the ruin and degradation of sin.  CC 18.


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ltvvaughn

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2013, 12:46:43 PM »
Sometimes I think that if God were to tell people outright that they were doing wrong, they would find a way to discount what He said.  Oh . . . but I guess He already has.  We have His plain and direct word and people still disregard its plain truths.

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Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2013, 02:57:19 PM »
Yes, it is called human nature, a fallen human nature. Let's go back one verse from where I quoted and see why it is that God placed a curse upon the man and the woman. "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel." Gen. 3:15. Here we see that there was a need for God to put "enmity" between man and the devil. What is enmity and why does God need to do this? When does He do it?  When correctly understood, this will explain why there is such a problem in the church. Rebellion in the church did not just happen. There is a reason why so  many can be as Pastor Vaughn has pointed out. Why are there so many who reject the plain simple stated truths in Scripture....who are IN the church?

Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2015, 07:48:26 AM »
The rebellion is only a symptom of a much deeper problem. The problem is found explicitly stated by Jesus in the third chapter of the Book of Revelation in His message to the Laodicean Church. If we would study the loveliness of Jesus we would become a converted people.

But, now we must not remain quiet in the face of such a great rebellion against not only the world church, but against the foundation of our faith, the Word of God.

The first thing recorded in Scripture history after the fall was the persecution of Abel. And the last thing in Scripture prophecy is the persecution against those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast. We should be the last people on the earth to indulge in the slightest degree the spirit of persecution against those who are bearing the message of God to the world. . . .
A passive piety will not answer for this time; let the passiveness be manifested where it is needed, in patience, kindness, and forbearance. But we must bear a decided message of warning to the world. The Prince of Peace thus proclaimed His work, “I came not to send peace [on earth], but a sword.” Evil must be assailed; falsehood and error must be made to appear in their true character; sin must be denounced; and the testimony of every believer in the truth must be as one. All your little differences, which arouse the combative spirit among brethren and sisters, are devices of Satan to divert minds from the great and fearful issue before us. . . .
Those who profess to believe the special truths for this time need to be converted and sanctified by the truth. As Christians we are made depositories of sacred truth, and we are not to keep the truth in the outer court, but bring it into the sanctuary of the soul. Then the church will possess divine vitality throughout.  CTr 356.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2015, 02:33:44 PM »
Post on pastor moved to existing topic, Pastors in the Church.
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Mimi

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2015, 08:11:25 PM »
Mr. Lambert, your posts in the Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists topic have been removed. In your post, you have asked if someone knows how to contact Elder Stephen Bohr. You may contact him at pastorbohr@secretsunsealed.org.

LindaRS, Moderator - Women's Ordination Crisis
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Richard Myers

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2015, 08:22:39 AM »
There is always more than we can see, but it is important that we understand the principles involved. In my studies this morning, I read this:

     You must feel your utter helplessness without Christ, and be much with God in prayer. The more ignorant of Bible truth the people are, and the lower they have sunk in ignorance and superstition, the more they need the arm of infinite power to lift them up. Pity rather than censure them. Recall your own sins and how long the Lord bore with your neglect of his great salvation, and walk with fear and trembling before him. Christ has said, “Without me ye can do nothing.” You need to be imbued with his Spirit. The human heart, uncontrolled by the Spirit of God, is void of the meekness of Christ, but loves to battle for the truth. Those who are proclaiming God's message to the world must not be captious or overbearing. They should not be too free to criticise or condemn others. They should be careful not to let their words wound, but should let pure Bible truth cut its way to the heart. When tempted to speak impatiently, remember, brethren, that when Jesus was reviled, he reviled not again. Give the reason of the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. With fear lest you have not the truth?—No; but with fear lest by some unwise, impatient word, you may close hearts against the truth. If you cannot be calm in answering the accusations of enemies, it is better to keep silent. 
     God wants you to testify to the world that you have a special message for them, by presenting it in the Spirit of Christ. They will then see the difference between those who teach it and those who oppose. But if you have exalted views of your own ability, your spirit will rise in self-justification at the least provocation.  What all the workers need is to make an entire surrender to God, and, putting self out of sight, lift up the Man of Calvary. When you have placed yourselves in the right relation to God, if you are compelled to go among the warring elements, Christ will give you his Spirit, and will work with your efforts. When brought in contact with the powers of darkness, angels of God will be right by your side, and will preserve you from the wrath of man. GW92 397.


Are we easily offended when others disagree with us? Then we need Jesus.

We are to follow Christ if compelled "to go among the warring elements."  We shall be misunderstood, attacked, and  even hated when we stand for truth. We may feel alone, but we are not if we will abide in Jesus. He will never leave us nor forsake us as we cling to Him. He will abide in us through the Spirit.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

colporteur

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Re: Rebellion Against the World Church of Seventh-day Adventists
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2015, 12:28:02 PM »

A very important factor regarding WO that is not being discussed much is ,......what would/will happen at the GC regarding the world president of our church? Perhaps, since the NAD has become a minority and the majority of the world church is more conservative we tend to think that Ted Wilson will be automatically re elected. However, that is not a given and if he were not how would the new president react if WO is voted down ?  In other words, a law or a ruling is only as good as those who stand by it. If a more moderate or liberal president were elected and WO was voted down the president and rebellious NAD leadership could/would.... just let it slide and continue to do their own thing. Voting down WO does not mean a whole lot if countries like the US and Australia  ignore it and continue to press for WO in other countries. If WO is voted down there is then a part two that comes into play. What will be done about those who continue to do what is right in their own eyes and thumb their nose at the world church ? If we were to receive a more moderate president it is pretty obvious what the problem would be.
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