Author Topic: No Manure Gardening  (Read 7596 times)

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colporteur

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No Manure Gardening
« on: June 16, 2011, 06:47:27 AM »
Some of my brethren here may know Bob Gregory. He lives in WV and teaches classes there. When we stopped there to check out his set up he had just returned from teaching gardening classes at Hartland. He goes with organic non GMO gardening with no manure.  His crops are so lush and sturdy. He had a few sunflowers and one was tempted to try to climb them. I have never seen such plants. When plants are this healthy and productive you do not need a large garden. He sells his produce at small farmer's markets and though his gardens are not large, maybe an acre totaled together the production is high. He has metal pipe green houses as well. They looked to be about 14 x 30 feet in dimension and run $750. This includes greenhouse grade plastic that lasts up to 7 years. Bob farms with a low budget. He had a red rose bush in in one greenhouse that was incredible. It was in full bloom and 5 ft tall and the same in width. Now it is not only important to go non GMO organic gardening but we must have a healthy buffer from other gardeners and farmers. The GMO can infect your garden and render your seeds as useless.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

Larry Lyons

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2011, 10:01:33 PM »
I am lucky to have found a supplier who sells soil mixes that they make themselves. Today I bought a yard of 50% screened soil, 25% compost (they make themselves) and 25% cow manure they get from a local organic dairy. There are a few dairys that are organic and do not use the usual pharmacological boosters to maximize production, but there are probably very few.

colporteur

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 06:42:55 PM »
I am lucky to have found a supplier who sells soil mixes that they make themselves. Today I bought a yard of 50% screened soil, 25% compost (they make themselves) and 25% cow manure they get from a local organic dairy. There are a few dairys that are organic and do not use the usual pharmacological boosters to maximize production, but there are probably very few.

That sounds like a good combination. I still use some horse manure but realize that there is some risk in manure even under the best of circumstances. It seems like the standards even with organics is slipping.
It's easier to slow a fast horse down than to get a dead one going.

T James

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 06:59:23 PM »
This is an interesting discussion that's getting started.  I'm used to gardening in the midwest but just moved to eastern Maryland and didn't have much sunny space in my yard to put a garden, so I'm renting a plot (600 square feet) at one of the local county community gardens.  There are two issues I've noticed:

First, I'm using all heirloom seeds and non-gmo materials.  The gardens are required to be "organic," but I'm sure most of the gardeners (there are 100+ plots) are not using the same thing.  Will other plots near mine "infect" my plants?

Second, I have a plot right next to the edge of the garden.  There's a 10' fence, but they spray roundup at the base of the fence to keep the weeds down!  So much for being totally organic.  Fortunately I am on an uphill slope from the fence.  But concerning the organic idea, the EPA has just allowed the use of some certain chemicals (I can't remember the names...have to re-read my emails) to deal with the Stink Bug infestation that is hitting the east coast.  These are a type of beetle that smells when squished.  There's no good organic control measure thus far, and they are a real scourge.  To save the "Organic Farms" from complete crop loss, the EPA is allowing certain chemical remedies.  So I would second colporteur's comment when he says "the standards even with organics is slipping."  I believe it's very important to be cautious even of the "organic" foods. 

As a question:  My plot is at the bottom of a gradual slope next to the fence.  All the other plots are above me.  How much do I need to worry about possible contaminants (possibly from manure) working it's way through the soil down the slope and into my plot?

In Christ,

Tim
"Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished" Is 51:6

Marelis

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 04:43:51 AM »
I'm probably the least experienced vegetable gardener here but got off to a serious and enthusiastic start this year.  So far I haven't used any animal manure.  Mainly heaps of organic mushroom compost and organic sugar cane mulch and now making my own compost.  I've been using an organic liquid seaweed very liberally - the seaweed is harvested from one of the cleanest parts of the world. I haven't used animal manure because I wanted to be sure of being strictly organic, not sure what kinds of de-worming, hormone and antibiotics have been fed to animals these days.  But I have been contemplating collecting manure from some of the wild animals - knowing it would be hard work. 

Next year I want to try green manuring - it sounds promising from what I've read.
"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."  Ps 16:11

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2011, 06:25:49 PM »
Sorry to have missed Tim's post. :(

I have little experience with growing heirlooms, but in my reading I understand that there is a very real problem that we need to be aware of.  Same with non-GMO seeds.  When heirlooms seeds cross with hybrids, then we have a problem. When non GMO crosses with GMO we have a problem. How easy for this to happen? Unless you are pollinating by hand, blocking off natural pollination, it becomes a very tricky matter even if you are the only one growing things on a large parcel. One has to become knowledgeable in regards to what will pollinate what and how far will there need to be separation. And that is dependent upon variables such as number of insects, their roaming area, and the winds.

Had a friend that was a commercial seed producer. He moved to the area because we were hundreds of miles away from the crops he was growing seeds for.  We have all heard the story about the farmers who did not want GMO and ended up in court when Monsanto tested their crop and found it was GMO.  We are losing our natural seeds due to this wave of "new seeds".  The day is coming when we will want the heirlooms, but we will then have to know how to protect them if we want a second crop.  My experience with the heirloom tomatoes is that they are not as easy to grow, and are more susceptible to disease.

Now is the time to learn how to grow them and to protect against cross pollination from hybrids and GMO. The closer you are to other plants that can pollinate, the harder it is to protect your plants.

Runoff from neighboring gardens generally ought not be a problem, unless you are downhill from them. Or in the winter when rain will carry manure a long ways. There is great danger from manure since it often carries the diseases of the animals from which it comes.  Cows can transmit e.coli and Mad Cow Disease amongst many others. Sheep and goats can carry Mad Sheep Disease (Scrapie). The reason why it is not safe to eat meat or dairy and eggs is because of the disease in the animals. It is often carried out of the animal through its feces. The last thing we want to come in contact with our food. We see this danger in the spread of e.coli through spinach and lettuce. These are deadly diseases.

We do the best we can.  If my neighbor is using manure, then I will have to be extra careful in laying out my garden to avoid his runoff and careful when I work in my garden and harvest my food. We are better off growing our food than buying it, even when it is organic, even when we have these "risks" next door.  God will work with us. We are not alone as we try and walk in the light of truth.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Marelis

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2011, 10:25:38 PM »
You've reminded me that gardening without animal manure is probably a good idea these days, thank you, Br Myers.  We can only do our best and trust that God will bless and encourage our best efforts, and help us to learn.  Some of us have much to learn in a short time.
"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."  Ps 16:11

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 05:03:38 AM »
The promise is that many will learn in weeks and months what others took years to learn!  :) Isn't it exciting!! I love to learn God's secrets!!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Marelis

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2011, 11:10:57 AM »
Some of my brethren here may know Bob Gregory. He lives in WV and teaches classes there. When we stopped there to check out his set up he had just returned from teaching gardening classes at Hartland. He goes with organic non GMO gardening with no manure.  His crops are so lush and sturdy. He had a few sunflowers and one was tempted to try to climb them. I have never seen such plants. When plants are this healthy and productive you do not need a large garden. He sells his produce at small farmer's markets and though his gardens are not large, maybe an acre totaled together the production is high. He has metal pipe green houses as well. They looked to be about 14 x 30 feet in dimension and run $750. This includes greenhouse grade plastic that lasts up to 7 years. Bob farms with a low budget. He had a red rose bush in in one greenhouse that was incredible. It was in full bloom and 5 ft tall and the same in width. Now it is not only important to go non GMO organic gardening but we must have a healthy buffer from other gardeners and farmers. The GMO can infect your garden and render your seeds as useless.
Wow, what an inspiration.  But it sounds like you have a similar green thumb yourself, Colporteur.  That is, you're a successful gardener.

I still do not really understand about how GMO can infect your own crops, only that it can - is it through cross-contamination?  Can this happen even if you're growing unusual vegetables that no one else in the area is growing? As far as I know very few people grow vegetable gardens around where I am, if they do, it would really only be cucumbers and tomatoes.  But - big but - I live in an agricultural area surrounded by large farms including fields galore of canola and corn  :(  And honey production - so lots of bees.  It would be the same if one moved 100 or 300 miles further into the country from here.  We are renowned for being in a high pollen area.

Can someone explain to me, if I'm not growing corn, soybeans, canola etc (which would likely be GM) can the pollen infect my different plants such as pumpkin, eggplants, peppers etc? Or would it only be a problem if I am growing corn?

Would the garden be offered any degree of protection from outside pollen by growing lots of bee-attracting flowers (eg lavender and rosemary)?

It just occurred to me that the old garden bed I had been looking forward to resurrecting is about 6 inches downhill from an old man who would surely spray chemicals all along that fence.  The water comes under the fence to that bed.  Now my gardening enthusiasm is just a little deflated.
"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."  Ps 16:11

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2011, 01:22:06 PM »
God is your Friend!! You do the best you can do and leave the rest with Him.  I would worry more about humans getting sprayed than your plants.  When he is spraying, you don't want to be downwind. The manure is a different  matter.  Just dig a little ditch to catch the runoff and point it away from your garden.

Different types of plants cannot cross pollinate.  It is a concern if you want to save seed. Then you will have to take a look at each plant and see if there are commercial crops that are GMO and being grown that could cross with your plants.   The two concerns for those wanting to save seed are GMOs and losing your particular tomato to another variety because of cross pollination.  If you are using hybrid seed, you do not save seed. So, we are really only talking about what is called heirloom varieties where you want to save the seed. 

We are a little ahead of the world. They think they are gong to have to survive forever when things fall apart. We know better.  So, I think the hype about heirlooms is a little over blown.  Make sure you have a number of varieties of seed saved sot that when we cannot buy seed, we already have some. Then the time period is going to be limited.  And, in the end our water and bread will be made sure. Such a blessing to have peace in the middle of the storm that is coming!!  In other words, Marelis, don't go to great extremes to protect your plants from cross pollinating. It is not going to effect your current crop and you already have seed for next year.  If you end up with GMO in your saved seeds, you are not going to have to worry when the end comes.  The GMO is not going to change your brain in a year or two!!  We have been influenced by the world more than we ought to be.  The same with oil. The poor souls who think we are going to run out in 200 years!!   :)  Oil is the least of their worries as disaster after disaster increases and wars and rumors of wars continue.

Keep up the gardening!  God will continue to bless you!!
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Marelis

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 11:34:46 AM »
Thank you, Br Myers.
"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."  Ps 16:11

Marelis

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 11:47:04 AM »
Having decided not to use animal manure, thought I would try green manuring a garden bed in a few months.  And so went along to a farm produce store and bought a few pounds of alfalfa seed.  My face dropped when I was given a bag of blue seeds.  I was told that it is a good thing for them to be blue as they are inoculated against disease.  And so I turned to my friend, Mr Google, and learned that the seeds have a coating of live Rhizobium bacteria. 

Of course this is all new to me.  There is a natural reluctance to sow bright blue seeds over a future vegetable patch but Mr Google seems to indicate that it is a good thing that the seed is inoculated.  Does anyone here know?
"Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore."  Ps 16:11

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 02:49:20 PM »
Not sure about the material, but you have chosen a good path with the alfalfa. It will be very good for your soil. Had a friend that mulched with alfalfa and he produced a very nice garden.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2013, 07:50:29 AM »
The dangers of using animal products in the garden is being discussed at the Michigan Camp-meeting.  9:30am EDT  Monday through Friday.  Live Feed
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mimi

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2013, 07:58:49 AM »
The promise is that many will learn in weeks and months what others took years to learn!  :)

Sadly, I am among the 11th-hour gardeners. Over the past several months, I have thought of this very thing. We will need to learn quickly, and we will, those things we need to know to grow food using God's methods.

  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2013, 08:10:05 AM »
The presentation this morning at the Michigan Camp-meeting was very good. We see that it is not just having food when the time of trouble comes, but that the food being produced commercially and even organic food is putting many at risk.  The suggested relationship between autism and glysophate (Roundup) was new information for me.  The staggering increase in autism ought to cause all to pay attention to what is being said.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mimi

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2013, 08:14:43 AM »
I was shocked to hear it for the first time, too.

And on a slightly different angle, we have always known the psychological benefits of gardening and now there is scientific data finally catching up to Inspiration. Just 30 minutes of gardening a day shows marked increase in cognition while decreasing the crippling effects of depression and even bipolar. That got my attention! Maybe the responsibility of a carrot patch can help one of my own.

The Lord is good. He knows what we need. If only we would listen.
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2013, 08:48:07 AM »
Yes, that is the point. God loves us, tells us what to do, and if we would do it, there are so many blessings to come that we have little understanding of. And if we do not walk in the light, we lose many of those blessings that we know nothing of. 
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.

Mimi

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2013, 08:17:24 AM »
The presentation this morning at the Michigan Camp-meeting was very good. We see that it is not just having food when the time of trouble comes, but that the food being produced commercially and even organic food is putting many at risk.  The suggested relationship between autism and glysophate (Roundup) was new information for me.  The staggering increase in autism ought to cause all to pay attention to what is being said.

Organic Bytes Food Safety Alert has this today. It is the first article on this link.

ESSAY OF THE WEEK
Another Monsanto Handout: EPA Set to Raise Limits on Glyphosate


http://www.organicconsumers.org/bytes/ob384.html
  For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven. Psalm 119:89 

Richard Myers

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Re: No Manure Gardening
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2014, 07:54:27 AM »
While doing some study this morning, I came across another statement of the threat posed by manure in the garden.  I am going to link to the site, but do not regard the statement that Scrapie poses no danger to humans. It is not true. source Go to the sections Exposure through contaminated soil, and Transmission summary.

This warning applies to other animals that carry spongiform disease.  Deer, elk, cows, cats, and others. And, we wonder why it is that strict vegetarians may suffer from diseases as do carnivores who eat the flesh of animals? There are many reasons. Using manure in the garden can be one reason.
Jesus receives His reward when we reflect His character, the fruits of the Spirit......We deny Jesus His reward when we do not.